1. Galadriel says:

    I love it.  Isn’t it great how even poorly told verisions of the story can point towards truth?

  2. Kessie says:

    Oh, this will be a good series, I can already tell. *pours cup of hot chocolate*

  3. “In the meantime, find a couple of spec-fic-loving friends in need of the true Messiah and ask them why all their favorite stories are beginning to look a lot like Christmas.”- Fred

    To which I know a few who would respond that this phenomenon in stories predates Jesus (as if predating the Creator of the universe were possible), and the Christmas story is just another fictional story just like all the others.

    • Andrea says:

      To which I know a few who would respond that this phenomenon in stories predates Jesus
      Heh. Those always makes me want to make snarky comments that bring in the Old Testament. Isaiah? Daniel? Genesis?  (It’s one thing I like about God: as a storyteller, he’s really good at foreshadowing.)
      It’s a good thing we aren’t saved by logic and reasoning, isn’t it?  We’d be sunk.

    • Anyone who is able to look at arguments critically will respond that way, actually. I felt insulted at the suggestion I use that “evangelistic” “argument.”

      The argument:
      There is a recurring theme throughout fiction. It would seem this shows a psychological need. I have a story I say is true and you say is fiction that has this recurring theme. Therefore this story must be true.

      I hope you’re kidding. Pointing out a foundational belief of ours has the marks of a common fictional trope is pointless at best and damaging at worst.

      • Kaci Hill says:

        Well, the problem with that argument (the ‘other stories predate Christianity’) is that it’s a half-truth.  A person using said argument doesn’t believe Jesus is God or that he in fact predates everything, and if you’re looking strictly at human founders, then Christianity, at its origins (blast, my ‘i’ key is not cooperating) an offshoot of Judaism ( a cult) that believes the Jewish Messiah already came.  If Jesus is not preexisting, and if he is not the foretold Jewish Messiah meant for the whole world, then, yes, other stories predate that one.  
         
        Unless you see the Jewish Scriptures and the Christian Bible as one piece, and unless you  believe that the God of Israel is in fact a universal God (meaning, he is the God of gods  and every nation owes their allegiance to him) and not just a local deity who planned from the start to do reconcile the whole of humanity, that the Messiah was always meant for everyone, and that this heritage is not just meant for Jews or Christians, but for all of us, then, yeah, Christianity really is pitiful as far as religions go.
         
        Or, to simplify that, because I fear I’m rambling:  Those who follow the God of gods have always existed. We just didn’t call them Christians until the church moved home base to Antioch, Syria.  (Before you freak  on me, Stephen, allow me this saying: “They looked forward to the Cross in anticipation; we look back at the Cross and remember.”)
         
        It’s also neglecting that Jesus wasn’t a resurrected god or human; he was both in entirety (not a human-god hybrid).
         
        It’s not that I think a ten-minute world history lesson is going to lead to conversions, but I think questions like that misunderstand Christianity as a whole.
         
        And while we might not be saved via Logic, God did plead with Israel, “Come, let us reason together.”

      • Fred Warren says:

        Kathrine: I’m not kidding, but “evangelistic argument” isn’t where I was going with this, either. As I noted in my response to Patrick, this is a conversation starter. I don’t expect to convince anyone that God is behind all this messiah talk in our literature, but it’s there, it’s there for a reason, and we can exchange opinions about why it’s there without insisting the other party accept our position.

        Messiah stories abound in our oral and written literary tradition, including speculative fiction. I don’t think acknowledging their existence and discussing their parallels with the Christian Advent narrative undermines our belief at all. Becky’s discussed the power of myth in her recent articles, and a turning point in C.S. Lewis’ conversion was his recognition of the truths of Christianity that were echoed in the ancient myths he had studied all his life. In the story of Jesus, he found what he called the “true myth.”

        A non-Christian might consider the Christian narrative derivative of other traditions, but that doesn’t make it less true or less powerful, and it certainly doesn’t terminate the discussion when someone doesn’t agree with us. To my mind, that’s when a conversation really begins.

      • Kathrine: I’m not kidding, but “evangelistic argument” isn’t where I was going with this, either. As I noted in my response to Patrick, this is a conversation starter.

        I think that if we’re confident in the Holy Spirit’s work to change someone’s heart, and not so intent on a specific Evangelism Program that involves asking questions by use of cheat-sheet three-by-five cards hidden under the table, we can enjoy with any friends a conversation about stories imitating Scripture.

        The point is not to finish up with John 3:16, or an altar call. There’s a time for that. Peter, for example, knowing his audience, preached that way at Pentecost (Acts 2). But Paul, in Acts 17, started a conversation, showing how even Greek poetry could, in a sense, echo a truth about the world (though he also showed how truth contradicted their cultural beliefs, and followed up with the curious).

        If God uses common-grace truth in nature, even making clear His existence in a fallen world (Romans 1), then we can do the same. The point is not to skip to the happy-end part of the Gospel, the specific revelation of Jesus and our need to repent. The point (subtly) would be to repeat a “law” of sorts, which the Spirit can then use — if He chooses, blowing “randomly” to and fro (John 3) — to bring about conviction. That’s His job, not ours. What a challenge, yet also a relief!

    • Fred Warren says:

      Patrick: It might be more helpful, then, to talk about where this idea of a messiah that’s so pervasive in our literature comes from, and why it has resonated so strongly with us across the centuries. It’s a springboard for conversation, not an apologetics strategy.

      • What an interesting thread I seem to have started. I’m glad all the tension in it seems to be directed at Fred and not myself 😉 . 

        I only said what I said because I have a particular friend in mind whom I would love to have such a conversation with. We can talk about many superficial and irrelevant things at length, but typically when I make any mention of my faith he gets defensive and will shut the conversation down as quickly as he can- then go off on some rant about me having some need to “convert” him, and why can’t I just accept him as he is, and such. I understand most people don’t react that way to an innocent discussion topic, but I was just thinking of this one person that I know and love and have been praying for since the moment I realized he…

        I want to say “doesn’t believe”, yet I can’t imagine why anyone would get so angry about something they think is a figment of my imagination.  He wouldn’t get angry with me if I said I believed in the Easter Bunny. We can discuss politics without him expressing any fear of my trying to convert him to my own beliefs. So it seems to be more an anger with this being he claims not to believe in. For God not being who he thinks God should be? It’s like he wants to believe in a god, who is 100% good and loving, and takes the state of this world as evidence that such a being can’t exist.

        Fred: This was a great article.  I’m sorry that most of the conversation about it has been drawn to your concluding lines that were meant to prompt discussions about this theme for conversation in relationships, and not meant to be the ace of spades to trump any argument against God’s truth- converting the masses to faith.

        Hope. That’s what this is about. The theme of Hope woven into the fabric of our existence. I’m so glad God IS 100% good and loving, and His goodness shines against the darkness that also truly exists, but from which he has delivered us. Through Him I can hope to one day have a conversation about this theme of Hope- of a Savior- with this dear friend of mine.

        • Fred Warren says:

          Patrick: It’s all good, and you made an important point that was worth discussing at some length–there’s no one-size-fits-all entry point to a discussion about faith. Sometimes a connection that seems crystal-clear to us can be totally lost on someone else, or may even trigger a negative reaction.

          It’s tough to be patient in a situation like you’ve described. You know your friend better than anyone, and your loyalty and concern for him can communicate God’s love better than any number of words. When your friend’s ready to talk, he’ll know who to ask.

  4. […] Kaci Hill: Well, the problem with that argument (the ‘other stories predate… 9:43 pm, November 29, 2011 […]

  5. From Kaci:

    If Jesus is not preexisting, and if he is not the foretold Jewish Messiah meant for the whole world, then, yes, other stories predate that one.
     
    Unless you see the Jewish Scriptures and the Christian Bible as one piece, and unless you  believe that the God of Israel is in fact a universal God (meaning, he is the God of gods  and every nation owes their allegiance to him) and not just a local deity who planned from the start to do reconcile the whole of humanity, that the Messiah was always meant for everyone, and that this heritage is not just meant for Jews or Christians, but for all of us, then, yeah, Christianity really is pitiful as far as religions go.

    Amen.

    And unless one sees, even as a non-Christian, the entire Bible — whose stories do clearly and certainly predate Christ’s coming — as pointing to Christ, foreshadowing that Story. In fact, I seem to recall a recent reference to “the reminder of our deep, deep roots that go back as far as the Garden where God promised a woman her son would destroy her family’s greatest and oldest foe.” Christ may not be the first “messianic” style hero ever recounted around campfires or in cultures. But the same Author wrote of forerunners.

    Or, to simplify that, because I fear I’m rambling:  Those who follow the God of gods have always existed. We just didn’t call them Christians until the church moved home base to Antioch, Syria.  (Before you freak  on me, Stephen, allow me this saying: “They looked forward to the Cross in anticipation; we look back at the Cross and remember.”)

    Wait, what was I supposed to freak about? I want to make sure I fulfill this prophecy. 😉

    It’s also neglecting that Jesus wasn’t a resurrected god or human; he was both in entirety (not a human-god hybrid).

    Amen again (and this is even more poignant, thanks to my recent J-Witness reading.)

    Also, He’s the only “story” — that is, true account — Hero I know of who doesn’t only save the suffering, the victims, the oppressed. He saves His enemies. The rebels. Us.
     
    Like other heroes, in other stories, He does sacrifice Himself to save suffering victims, His friends — but unlike other stories, He sacrifices Himself to save the villains, who themselves inflicted (in a human sense) suffering on Him. That originality, that vast difference between His story and other hero narratives, should tell us something.

    • Kaci says:

      Wait, what was I supposed to freak about? I want to make sure I fulfill this prophecy.

      Occasionally I’m not sure if a particular phrasing  is going to get misunderstood, as I used the word ‘universal.’ 😉 Don’t worry; I didn’t want you to.
       

    • Hey, I’m the guy who has to be careful when I question popular assumptions that God has no interest, according to Scripture, of saving the actual physical world. 😀 Too much wondering gets around about what, then, is God’s use for the physical world — resulting in some well-meaning souls getting caught up in universalism. How I do wish folks like them would just find their own language and not confusedly use “ours” …

      But that would make things far too easy, I suppose.

  6. By the way, Fred, a frivolous question if your time permit: by referring to this as Episode I: A New Hope, are you thereby disowning the actual Star Wars Episode I film, and by proxy all the prequels, and thus also the revised numbering system that includes Episode IV: A New Hope?

  7. Fred Warren says:

    What other three?

    Well, I can’t disown them entirely, as I’ve referenced The Phantom Menace and Baby Vader therein. Darth Maul is cool. Podracing is cool. Final showdown on the lava world is cool. Lightsaber Yoda-style is also cool. Jar-Jar Binks singlehandedly negates almost all the cool. Sigh.

    This is merely the first episode of Speculative Christmas.

What do you think?