1. Galadriel says:

    One of my favorite authors, Bryan Davis, said “A fantasy story is something that can’t happen without a miracle.”  A good defination, and a good guideline too…

  2. This idea that fiction must either entertain or convey a Moral leaves me asking the same question as Professor Kirke: “Bless me, what do they teach them at these schools?” Going back to Chaucer and Sidney, and possibly even (yes) to Plato, in situations where fiction per se is being condemned, one of the standard justifications is that it both entertains and conveys Truth. Chaucer put it as “sentence and solace” (which just shows how much the language has changed since then), while Sidney said that the two purposes of “Poetry” are to “Teach and Delight.” If fiction utterly fails in either purpose, the condemnation of the endeavor holds: empty delight is (at least arguably) worthless, and a story with a Moral that isn’t the slightest bit entertaining would have worked far better as an undisguised sermon.

  3. Martin LaBar says:

    To quote a previous post in Speculative Faith:

    And Jesus made fantasy stories come true. He made a coin appear in the mouth of a fish. A fig tree withered at His command. He calmed a storm with a spoken word. He walked on water. Without His power, none of these events could ever occur. They are fantasy stories brought to life. And each one taught us a lesson we will never forget. Why? Because fantasy brands images on our minds that cannot be erased. 

    Bryan Davis, “Why Fantasy,” part 1, Aug 23, 2006. http://www.speculativefaith.lorehaven.com/2006/08/23/why-fantasy-part-1/

  4. MGalloway says:

    “In two parables, found in Matthew 22 and 25, one king, and a man returned from a long journey, both punish people in a way impossible in the real world: they have the villains cast “into the outer darkness.””

    Unless Jesus is referring to Himself/God the Father. For example, Matthew 22:1-14 seems like a summary of the entire Bible up until that point…and the wedding banquet also seems to fit together with Revelation 19:7-9. Another thought: a while back, I heard a Bible study that drew connections between the “outer darkness” verses and the Millennial kingdom/temple found in the latter chapters of Ezekiel…which was interesting.

    • MGalloway, thanks much for your comment.

      I fully agree that Christ using the wealthy man, or the King, as allegorical stand-ins for the Father is very likely, given the nature of the punishment and the use of a power only God could have in reality — the right to send someone to “outer darkness.”

      If so, this indeed confirms the parable is a story, fiction used to point to a real-life truth, and not a description of an actual event. I’m quite sure many of Jesus’ parables contained allegories, as real life often does (another Biblical example: marriage as an allegory of Christ and His Church, Ephesians 5). Yet it’s clear that He was not merely describing literal events that happened in some place only He knew.

      • MGalloway says:

        Okay, but how about verses 3-5? Verse 3 (NKJV): “…and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come.” And then in verses 5 and 6, it states: “But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them.”

        Reading these verses, it seems that the “they” refers to the Israelites, and the servants (at least in these early verses) refers to the prophets that were sent to them. Verse 7 could be a reference to the destruction of Jerusalem (in 586 B.C.), and verse 9 could be a reference to things being opened up to the Gentiles and perhaps is even inclusive of our own current times. Verses 10 through 14 seem to be speaking of the future, however.
        Good discussion here, by the way…and on a challenging topic, too.

  5. Kaci Hill says:

    Well, as far as Dekker goes, I don’t think he was implying in any way that those stories all had to be real stories, just that they could’ve been. Either way, the larger point is that Jesus used storytelling as a teaching tool, just like people have for thousands of years; and the bigger point is what he was trying to communicate in each of them.
     
    As far as prophecy goes, all I’m going to say is that I tend to think many of those passages have dual meanings: a more immediate one with a future parallel. Once upon a time I had a whole argument for that, but that was…probably a decade ago.

  6. Perhaps I’m missing something, simply because I think it’s clear from the parable that it is both a story and includes allegorical elements that echo aspects of God’s story.

    In Matthew 22, after all, Christ begins with “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to …” establishing from the start that this next will contain allegories. “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to …” simplifies things for us a lot! What follows will be something with which we may compare the Kingdom of Heaven, i.e., Christ’s Church, destined for a remade, restored physical/spiritual universe. And comparing the wedding here with the imagery of the New Jerusalem and the Church as Christ’s bride would seem only apt, especially given the real-yet-with-allegory meaning of marriage, the mystery more fully revealed in Ephesians 5.

    More from MGalloway:

    Okay, but how about verses 3-5? Verse 3 (NKJV): “…and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come.” And then in verses 5 and 6, it states: “But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them.”

    Reading these verses, it seems that the “they” refers to the Israelites, and the servants (at least in these early verses) refers to the prophets that were sent to them

    It very well could be! Yet I agree with Kaci that “many of those passages have dual meanings: a more immediate one with a future parallel.” Some Christians, after all, see a dual meaning in Daniel’s prophecies that were most clearly and quickly fulfilled by the madman Antiochus “Epiphanes” — but those prophecies suddenly jump into a much higher scale and seem to be talking about an even worse, and possibly future, dictator. And prophecies about Christ’s coming typically blend His first arrival, as the suffering servant to fulfill the Law and the Prophets, with His second coming, as a conquering King to destroy all God’s enemies and bring perfect peace on a New Earth.

    Perhaps that is why, for some parables, Jesus did not directly explain their meaning as if this is The Set Meaning and there isn’t any other. Fiction operates on so many levels, and for fiction told by a Savior Who could very likely foresee many types of allegories imbued in the tale, it’s not a stretch to consider He had in mind more than one meaning.

    What we can’t do, of course, is come up with a possible meaning contrary to what Scripture more directly reveals about God and His Gospel.

    Verse 7 could be a reference to the destruction of Jerusalem (in 586 B.C.),

    Verse 7 could be. Or it could represent, more generally, God’s destruction of the wicked — those who refuse without repentance His generous offer to attend His “feast.”

    and verse 9 could be a reference to things being opened up to the Gentiles and perhaps is even inclusive of our own current times.

    Given Christ’s emphasis on restoring Israel’s role as being a light to the nations, a “kingdom of priests” (a theme that also recurs in Hebrews) as God originally intended, I have no doubt verse 9 was at least a reference to the Jews-to-Gentiles theme. And yet one could certainly also apply this meaning to countless recurrences of similar scenarios: when those who once professed to be God’s people “fell away” (i.e., never really were) and were replaced by another people, or a generation, who proves faithful.

    Verses 10 through 14 seem to be speaking of the future, however.

    Could be — yet in some sense Christians believe that is being fulfilled every time a person dies having still rejected repentance and faith in Christ right until the very end.

    Good discussion here, by the way…and on a challenging topic, too.

    Thanks much! These are the roots, I think, of a more-challenging pursuit I hope to undertake soon: overviewing all Christ’s parables, or most of them, with the foundation that God has always been telling “stories” about His big Story, ever since the Old Testament, and drawing out specific applications for visionary storytellers today.

    • MGalloway says:

      Good points by both you and Kaci…and I do agree about how Jesus used various situations to explain larger truths.

      I think the issue for some, however, may be the use of the word “fiction”, because that word has somewhat of a loaded meaning. In other words, people tend to equate that with things like Batman, Alice in Wonderland, The Wizard of Oz, etc. Likewise, when you wrote:

      “These are perhaps the clearest examples of Jesus drawing upon “fantasy” to illustrate reality.”

      …could potentially lead to a sort of “slippery slope” situation where the reader starts to wonder what other parts of the Bible use “fantasy” or fictional elements.  Maybe I’m wrong on that, I don’t know.

      Along with this, there is already the issue for some with the Book of Jonah…where some Christians have called it outright fiction. Usually the logic is…”well, how could anyone survive in a whale for three days?” Yet Jesus referred back to Jonah (and ultimately connected it to himself). Later on, too, a prophecy of Nineveh’s destruction came through Nahum…and maybe in some subtle ways the two books together echo Christ’s first and second comings to some limited extent.

      But if we call the Book of Jonah fiction, does that make Nahum fiction too? What about the ruins of Nineveh that still exist? Then there’s this curious line about Jesus in Luke 24:27 (NKJV):

      “And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.”

      E. Stephen Burnett wrote:

      “These are the roots, I think, of a more-challenging pursuit I hope to undertake soon: overviewing all Christ’s parables, or most of them, with the foundation that God has always been telling “stories” about His big Story, ever since the Old Testament, and drawing out specific applications for visionary storytellers today.”

      Sounds interesting!

      • Kaci Hill says:

        I think the issue for some, however, may be the use of the word “fiction”, because that word has somewhat of a loaded meaning. In other words, people tend to equate that with things like Batman, Alice in Wonderland, The Wizard of Oz, etc.

         
        I’m actually one of those some people, to be honest. I don’t think it’s good to use the same terminology (characters, stories) for Scripture that we do with fiction, just because it creates a subtle shift. I’ve picked on Stephen a bit. 😛 It’s also why I don’t really like saying things like “Well, there’s violence in the Bible.” That’s comparing Lord of the Rings with a book of the History of the British Islands. Sure, there’s violence in history books, but that doesn’t mean it’s okay to use violence in fiction.

        As far as Jesus’ stories go, I don’t see a problem with saying that when Jesus referred directly to historical figures (Jonah, Moses, Nahum, Abraham, Isaiah), clearly those were real stories while things like the prodigal son may have been real, but might have been fictitious, too.

        And even all that said, we could probably have a lively discussion on the different literary genres present in Scripture.
         
         

  7. Likewise, when you wrote:

    “These are perhaps the clearest examples of Jesus drawing upon “fantasy” to illustrate reality.”

    …could potentially lead to a sort of “slippery slope” situation where the reader starts to wonder what other parts of the Bible use “fantasy” or fictional elements.  Maybe I’m wrong on that, I don’t know.

    MGalloway, that’s why I want to be very careful about this issue, given some misunderstandings about the Bible — ones that I’ve held myself, as a practitioner of what I recently heard called “folk theology,” simple and cute, and occasionally Biblical, beliefs!

    Like Kaci said just above, the issue is one of the Bible’s different literary genres. God as the author, “breathing” His Word, was a genius and didn’t simply string together a bunch of proverbs and pieces of religious advice (e.g., the Qu’ran). He inspired varying genres throughout the 66 books of the one Book, from historical narrative, to direct Law, to books of songs/Psalms, proverbs, philosophical treatises, prophecies, Gospel narratives, more history, epistles, and just-plain-weird/prophecy/thing (Revelation).

    All of these have varying guidelines for literal reading, and I’m still working through those (thanks to books like How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth). For instance, some will say “you must keep your adult daughters at home until they’re married,” and point to the account of Rebecca and say “this is the literal understanding.” No it’s not. That passage doesn’t prescribe marriage, but describes it in that instance. The main meaning behind that account is the history of God’s dealing with His chosen people.

    Conversely, someone may say (I may get in trouble here) “we must interpret the words of Genesis 1-2 as metaphorical.” But that passage, though I understand it also carries poetic connotations, would never have been understood other than as describing history. (Side note: people may say “Genesis’ creation account is poetic,” as if proving that automatically disqualifies it as also portraying a claimed literal history!)

    Along with this, there is already the issue for some with the Book of Jonah…where some Christians have called it outright fiction. Usually the logic is…”well, how could anyone survive in a whale for three days?” Yet Jesus referred back to Jonah (and ultimately connected it to himself).

    That seems the key difference: Christ referred to Jonah, just as He referred to Adam and Eve, as a real person. He never referred to His parables that way. By giving the key words “A certain man …” or “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to …” it’s clear He is beginning a story, a tale, clear even to we readers who weren’t there to see His change in tone or posture, or perhaps hear a natural break in His voice.

    I don’t think it’s good to use the same terminology (characters, stories) for Scripture that we do with fiction, just because it creates a subtle shift.

    We agree on this, Kaci. I’ve tried to cut terms like “story” out of my descriptions of Biblical elements, replacing them with the word account. (In fact, just now I changed the word above!) And character does not seem a good term to use for, say, Adam, Eve, Jonah, or especially Christ, all of whom were real people from history. After all, no one says “in the story of the Civil War, the character of Abraham Lincoln …” etc.

    However, the parables are different. I’ve no problem with terming them “fiction” or “stories,” with “characters,” because Jesus Himself was clearly telling stories about characters to illustrate very real points about Himself, the Gospel, and the Kingdom.

    • Kaci Hill says:

      MGalloway, that’s why I want to be very careful about this issue, given some misunderstandings about the Bible — ones that I’ve held myself, as a practitioner of what I recently heard called “folk theology,” simple and cute, and occasionally Biblical, beliefs!

       
      I’m going to have to remember the phrase ‘folk theology.’ It’s a great one.
       

      We agree on this, Kaci. I’ve tried to cut terms like “story” out of my descriptions of Biblical elements, replacing them with the word account. (In fact, just now I changed the word above!)

       
      I just remembered being bugged by your previous use of ‘imagination’ on largely the same logic. It really could just be me (cuz, y’know, I”m weird).  Anyway, I know, but since it came up recently I just used it. 😛
       

      However, the parables are different. I’ve no problem with terming them “fiction” or “stories,” with “characters,” because Jesus Himself was clearly telling stories about characters to illustrate very real points about Himself, the Gospel, and the Kingdom.

       
      Right.

What do you think?