‘Harry Potter’ and The Issues Beyond Fiction, Part 4
Signs point to yes: the Magic 8-Ball was based on a "'spirit-writing' device." Could you be contaminated?
Quick quiz for a slow summer Thursday: what do the following things have in common?
- The Harry Potter series of books and films.
- Pictures of the devil or creepy creatures.
- Finery in religious worship services.
- “Rock and roll” or pop music.
- The “Magic 8-Ball” toy.
- Yoga.
They’re all things that have — or that some Christians have argued have — pagan origins and therefore should not be messed with, or at best are suspected to have some kind of latent evil “stuff.” Many such Christians have good intentions behind these beliefs, and rightly claim that other professing Christians aren’t on their guard against stuff that can cause temptation or acceptance of untruth. And as before in this series, I don’t want to question their hearts.
Yet I will question whether these kinds of Christians have considered the implications of this practice. Is this a Biblical view? Again we see that thinking through the Harry Potter issue, beyond just the fiction questions, can help us learn to discern in other ways …
9. Because those who try to avoid bad Things like “magic” in stories may themselves fall into practicing magic and mysticism.
I don’t have a copy of the minutes from Hell’s conference dungeons. But if I were the Devil, or at least an undersecretary in the Lowerarchy, this would be among my top plans for world domination. It seems to be one of the most ingenious conspiracies, so he must be behind it:
- Exaggerate my powers. God still owns the world, even under the curse of sin, so let’s help humans forget that little truth so they think God is weaker and I’m stronger.
- Let humans assume their own hearts are okay, or at best “neutral” even after Jesus saves them. Instead let them fear mainly books, movies, songs, or other Things.
- Keep some of the worst actual Satanic occult stuff deeper in the dark.
- And, maybe even better, let other mystical stuff be hidden in plain sight! Infiltrate the Church’s pews, bookstores, and blogs with un-Biblical notions that can only be tantamount to the actual practice of wrong witchcraft.
Such notions can include more-obvious things like televangelist healing crusades, or those silly paper “prayer rugs” that come in the mail. But better still are other seemingly harmless notions that people use to try to avoid all evil influences or to try to control their own lives.
A letter in the mailing actually says, "Psychics, mediums and clairvoyants have no place in God's plan for your life." Whew, I'm glad they know those things are wrong.
What better broad definition of actual witchcraft is there than a desire to control one’s own life or avoid bad Things? All “real” “magic” is made up for that goal. It’s the appeal of real-life Wicca, I’m sure, but frankly also any other religion centered on man.
Sinful humans are surely able to abuse even discernment in mystical ways to try to control. For example, with Harry Potter, the Magic 8-Ball, or yoga, some Christians may worry that any of these Things might somehow contain evil. Optimally he would best check to see if Scripture truly supports the idea that Things can contain some kind of spiritual residue, like germs, or else know his own gifts, history, and limitations and use that to choose what to avoid. But instead, a Christian may base his belief about the Thing’s nature on the testimony of a pagan or the Thing’s supposed history, or even worse, act as if he can avoid the evil, taboo Thing and thereby prevent evil’s influence and protect himself.
"We don't arrest people for being creepy." (... *Click* "Bruce, you know that guy we got in the tank?" "Ah, the creepy one?" "Yeah, better let him go.")
Either way, kazam, the demonic (or fleshly!) deception is complete. Even while trying to avoid supposed magic and evil influences, the Christian has just practiced a form of “magic” himself. Moreover, this kind of thinking is notorious among sincere Christians:
- Based mostly on Middle-Ages representations of demons as beings who resemble bats or made-up creatures, some Christians believe it’s always wrong to be exposed to such images. Thus an emotional response, that’s creepy, becomes a basis for “discernment,” instead of God’s revealed Word.
Chick tracts: used by God, I'm sure, despite superstitions about Things and myths about "Harry Potter"'s contents.
(Oddly enough, these Christians may believe it’s often okay to show bad stuff. Example: one popular tract artist. But he also spreads myths about the Harry Potter books and other superstitions, based partly on that’s-creepy reasons.)
- Some Christians act as though trappings of traditional or contemporary worship (yes, I’ve heard this applied to choir robes and electric guitars) have “pagan roots” and will corrupt people. Thus a Thing is shunned because of its supposed origin.
- In fall 2010, seminary president Al Mohler said something that cloistered secularists found suddenly outrageous: that Christians aren’t too thrilled about bringing yoga into the Church. Yet in many of his defenders’ haste, they failed to clarify for the Church and the world that Christians aren’t afraid of Things like breathing patterns or stretches, but of how they can be abused in ways that displease God. Thus Things are assumed to be evil, rather than objects to be abused.
All these amount to methods of control-my-life-style witchcraft! And whatever you think about Harry Potter or any of these things specifically, a Thing’s supposed pagan origins or “obvious” evil could be far less dangerous than the “angel of light” tricks the Devil (and our flesh!) uses. Christians who only warn against “obvious” mysticism may themselves act like superstitious shamans who shun supposed evil objects. Meanwhile, anti-God mysticism may go through the back way, directly into our hearts, even while we have illusions of safety.
And I haven’t even gone into other frequent ways Christians may, with good intentions, practice “divination” to seek secret things only God can know. (For more, read this guy.)
Rather, it’s enough to recall that sin is sneakier than we think and can infiltrate our lives from within; and that the Devil is not powerful enough to control us through Things, but is likely not so stupid only to make his assaults using obvious means that we could easily avoid.
Next Thursday: how did some Biblical saints handle actual bad stuff? And what about the “someone else used it to sin” objection, or “weaker brothers,” or personal preferences?
Dear Stephen,
I’m quite disappointed in you. You have posted a Jack Chick tract and have therefore caused me to stumble. I’m going to have to burn my laptop now, as I’m pretty sure it’s now demonically influenced. Moreover, you have not only mentioned Harry Potter and Jack Chick, because you posted a link to something that mentions Harry Potter, witchcraft, the occult, and the Spirit all at once, I may have confused the works of the Spirit and the works of the Devil. This is not good, and I’m quite sad my brother in Christ would treat me this way. To even entertain thoughts of such ideas is the same as engaging in the ‘craft.
All of that to say, unfortunately I cannot in good conscience share your link with anyone, because I might spread the demonic influence. Please, Stephen, Christianity has no gray area, and in this time of relativism and postmodernism we cannot be too careful.
I highly suggest you remove this post and have both your site and your computer purged of all evil. I suggest a laying of hands and anointing oil. Please consider these things the next time you post. I shall pray for your restoration today.
In Christ.
Now, just so everyone recognizes it–
SHE’S BEING SARCASTIC, PEOPLE.
Where’s the winking smilie when you need it?
I suppose I’ve been around too long for very many people to bite. 0=)
In all fairness, I really don’t have a problem with people getting the impression they shouldn’t read or watch something. That may well be the Spirit’s leading, and no one should try to convince them otherwise. Like I said below regarding yoga: It really falls under the category of the Spirit’s individual leading and whether or not our conscience is affected by it. If you can’t watch Harry Potter (or read Jack Chick tracts) in good conscience, then don’t.
And if I’m honest, it took me awhile to feel comfortable writing the bit about laying of hands or the demonic/divine influences, because I really don’t have a problem with it. And I’ve had a teacher offer to exorcise my laptop. So there you go–Some of those arguments, under the right circumstances, I’d actually make myself. Have made.
How did Paul put it? “And if anyone thinks differently, the Spirit will instruct him” (my paraphrase). If we’re into something we shouldn’t be out of ignorance, I have to trust he’ll eventually convict us of it.
That Chick tract is just sad.
I am a little confused about the yoga business. Isn’t yoga a spiritual exercise that is at odds with Christianity? Why would we need to explain why Christians don’t do yoga? Do people really think that Christians should practice yoga?
I know several dancers who use yoga as exercise, and one friend (who I can’t ask to comment right now because she’s on her honeymoon) in particular has had the discussion more than once. My understanding is that there are basically two kinds: the actual yogas performed by Hindus and others (which, if you want, I’ll go find my book on the subject) and the simple exercise techniques used for strength.
I guess in my head it’s a bit like anything else: incense can be used to worship God or gods; a book of prayer can be used as a teaching tool, prayer, meditation, or spellbook of incantations; instruments, the human voice, and dancing can be a method of worship or simple entertainment; standing at attention or bowing the knee can be respect or worship. Meditation centers the mind either on the things of God or of the world.
That’s all I’ve got offhand.
Oh, here go. I skimmed this, but it appears similar to what I was thinking of from the Hinduism book. From the site:
Granted, we could probably argue back and forth on the physical discipline, as discipline is a spiritual thing to be attained. But if it’s really a practice not even a practicing Hindu would consider one of the “spiritual paths,” I’m not sure why a Christian should either. Again, I haven’t put too much into it, and my study of Hinduism was primarily concerned with understanding a world where Hinduism is the primary point of perception. If I ever considered doing yoga, I’d give it a sterner look.
Good series, Stephen. I particularly like your point about Christians trying to practice a kind of “holy divination”. Isn’t this similar to the appeal of gnosticism to the Colossian church? The desire to have a mystical knowledge or insight that other Christians didn’t possess?
On a tangential note, I’ve spent my life attending conservative evangelical churches, and Jack Chick tracts creep me out. They always have. I got more terrified (read: screaming nightmares for weeks), and had a stronger sense of evil and oppression, from reading his “Exorcists” comic at a friend’s house when I was ten years old than from any other experience in my life. Even though that was thirty years ago, I still feel like throwing up every time I see his artwork. It brings all those horrible images that frightened me so much as a child flooding back again.
Does that mean I believe Jack Chick is demonic or that there are evil spirits inhabiting his tracts? No, he’s just an ordinary man, and I’m sure he means well, and no doubt there are a number of subjects on which we would agree. On the other hand, the things he gets wrong and the way he mishandles sensitive subjects are so egregious I think they actually do serious harm to the cause of Christ, and I would never feel comfortable about handing out one of his tracts, regardless of the subject matter.
Sally: It’s possible to practice yoga simply as a physical exercise — a set of stretches to help your balance and flexibility. It can, I’m told, be very beneficial for the body. The difficulty is finding a yoga class which doesn’t include the mystical elements, but they do exist. However, some Christians might fear that participating in even a purely physical yoga class might become a stumbling block for others who don’t understand the difference, so they abstain. Others might take part in a physical yoga class at their local gym because their doctor recommends it, but do so discreetly without making it into a divisive issue. It seems to me that this is another “meat offered to idols” matter, where each Christian must be settled in his or her own conscience.
‘Christians don’t/can’t….’
practice yoga, read Harry Potter or other fantasy not written by C. S. Lewis, have same-sex attraction/gay identity, be divorced, be Catholic, drink a beer……
Sally, there are such a lot of Christian denominations (and ‘non-denominations’) who believe in Christ and follow the teachings of the Bible, yet who have very different views on stuff like yoga.
It’s just my opinion, but I think we need to be really careful about talking about what all Christians do/don’t do.
When I was in college I practiced yoga exercises and even did some meditations (which were free from anything I recognized as spiritual, but seemed more like a discipline of the mind.) I was devoutly conservative Christian and was even considering a career with Wycliffe Bible Translators (I was a Lutheran at the time.)
I’m a big fantasy fan and read authors from J. K Rowling to Mercedes Lackey to Diana Paxson (who was leader of a neopagan religious group.) I don’t think reading about make-believe magic is as harmful as reading non-fiction works promoting the real-life culture of death. But that’s just my opinion.
When I said that Christians don’t have to explain why they don’t practice yoga, Nissa, I didn’t mean that no Christian has ever mistakenly practiced yoga. I meant that the practice of yoga and the practice of Christianity are at odds with one another. The fact that you practiced yoga in college doesn’t change my mind about that.
Neither would it change my mind. Instead a better argument to make would seem to be that breathing patterns, stretches, and exercises aren’t automatically corrupt just because a pagan discovered or popularized them first. But maybe we should not call that “yoga” anyway, because it’s certainly not the same thing as the empty-your-mind religious practice that are very often associated with those merely physical motions.
cross posted. Sorry. I agree with you here. I don’t see any reason to call our stretching exercises after pagan spiritual practices.
I’m continually surprised by how Christians’ positions (ba-dum, tissh) on yoga continue to provoke conversation among people — myself included, but still …
My position is the same as R.J. Anderson mentioned above:
Exactly. Just because a pagan, as part of his/her religious rituals, may have first found or even popularized a method of breathing, exercise, or stretching, doesn’t mean that Thing is therefor “tainted.” Nor does Scripture support the notion that a certain bodily action or position is intrinsically evil. I think many Christians assume otherwise because of un-Biblical assumptions: the Pelagian notion that man is basically good or even neutral and Things and his environment corrupt him, and latent Gnosticism that suspects the material world and the body of being bad and the spirit as somehow “higher.” Both are flagrantly refuted by Scriptures that reveal to us the true state of the human heart, and how God is redeeming not just His children’s souls, but all creation.
With yoga, though, I can understand Christians’ trepidation. First, some professing (or real) Christians are just willfully ignorant about what you can and cannot “mix” with Christianity, and if so, how you do it. Some “Christian yoga” classes I’ve heard about seem to think it’s perfectly fine to do all the mystical stuff right alongside the harmless stretching, so long as you’re playing praise choruses on the stereo or using Christian names. That’s just more mysticism. Trying to “empty your mind” to the sound of “praise ‘n’ worship” music is no more “Christian” than doing so to hypnotic secular stuff.
From Nissa above:
Here is where I believe we must be careful. Nothing in Scripture specifically prescribes certain reading or fiction habits, or opposes enjoying an alcoholic beverage. But plenty of Scripture, not just to make Rules but for the goal of honoring God, does oppose “gay identity” behavior, and I daresay a fair amount of Catholic teaching besides. Christ said “if you love Me, keep my commandments.” To ignore His commandments (the word of Scripture) is equally as bad as making up commandments and rules He never gave.
But, perhaps you were just making a point about how many Christians will often explain the what but not the why behind their rules about things like alcohol and same-sex attraction. Without Biblical basis, they all start to sound the same, and one could easily decide that because one rule (say, about drinking) isn’t in the Bible, therefore the other rules (gay lifestyles) must be made up too. Surveying actual Scripture would show the difference.
Kaci,
I know that Wikipedia is not a trusted source, but at least we can say that some people disagree with the idea that some forms of yoga are not spiritual exercises. Whoever wrote the Wikipedia entry seems to think there is quite a bit of spirituality involved in Hatha yoga.
The writer at this site—ABC of Yoga—also thinks there is spirituality involved. “Hatha Yoga’s Relaxation Exercises will open the energy channels, which in turn allows spiritual energy to flow freely.”
Stephen,
Why would any Christian who is only stretching and breathing choose to fool us all by calling what he’s doing yoga instead of calling it stretching and breathing? What can possibly be gained by naming our stretching exercises the exact same thing as the Hindus call their spiritual exercises that usher them into altered states of consciousness?
Go to this page and just scroll down and read the paragraphs of summaries.
Is stretching and then claiming to be doing yoga different from eating chicken, and calling it a sacrifice to Satan? Eating chicken is lawful, but once I name my chicken a sacrifice to Satan, I have entered into sin. Hasn’t a Christian calling his exercises yoga aligned himself with demons? Hindus aren’t worshiping nothing. They are worshiping demons. Christians are not to be yoked with demons. (yoga means yoked, btw, and it’s an apt description of people who go into altered states of consciousness. They are yoked with demons. This is why centering prayer is so wrong–it’s yoga under a different name.)
Rebecca,
Christians were not to eat meat sacrificed to idols. (Acts 15:29 and 1 Corinthians 10:18-23). Eating meat that had been sacrificed and was then sold in the marketplace was fine. But going to the sacrifice and eating was not fine.
Stretching and breathing is fine just like eating meat you buy in the marketplace is fine. But I think yoga is like eating at the table of demons.
The point of yoga is not stretching and breathing. It’s all about entering into a state of tranquility apart from Christ. This is sin. Even the yoga classes that are just exercise are about de-stressing. And to try to de-stress through Hindu techniques is sinful. God tells us how to deal with our anxiety and how to find the peace of God which transcends understanding. (Phil. 4:6&7)
Did no one else find the linked divination discussion article a little off?
Threw that link in as a related resource, though not directly tying in to the issue of Christians who do act “magically” about Things or protecting themselves from sin. I do think it’s an important issue, though mostly from a nonfiction basis; thus I’m curious: what about it seemed “off,” I wonder?
Equating feelings with divination is a stretch in my mind.
(I suppose I can think of a couple instances where Christians claimed to know the future based on “feelings” but it is usually directed as more of a present moment thing in my experience)
Plus the whole “name one time God doesn’t speak with an audible voice in the Bible”. When does it ever say that the Holy Spirit used an audible voice? I didn’t get the impression that Peter and the others were hearing a voice at Pentecost and I don’t think the inspiration and authority of the Holy Spirit there can be reasonably doubted.
I found it to be off as well. I’d have to read through it again to give reasons, but while I don’t have Bible verses to counter many of his points, he doesn’t have them to make them, so we’re even there. 🙂 Also, whenever people start telling me God can’t work in a particular way without backing it up with reasons like ‘it’s against His nature’, I tend to disagree. And I’m pretty sure that using people’s feelings to communicate with them is not against God’s nature.
I really appreciate the anti-gnostic, anti-mysticism approach to dealing with the Potter books in these posts. Very insightful.
Incidentally, Christians also denounced the invention of the radio and the television as being satanic, on the basis that the Devil was the “prince of the air,” and thus we cannot employ the airwaves without falling under his dominion.
And as an example of the “it’s creepy” approach to fiction with magic in them, I give you a quote from anti-Potter catholic writer Michael D. O’Brien:
“Interestingly, from the moment I began to read volume one, I too was hit by an unexpected spiritual disgust, along with the sense of an oppressive presence that I had come to recognize over the years as the proximity of adverse spirits . . . . from the day I opened the first page and began to read, a cloud of darkness and dread descended, which was held at bay only by increased prayer . . . .” (Harry Potter and the Paganization of Culture, p. 12).
Adam, do you have a source for that quote, or is it a print publication only?
I’d be interested to hear of more pagan mysticism that is actually being practiced while practitioners (well intentions aside) are deceived into thinking they’re opposing pagan mysticism.
Meanwhile, thanks much for your encouragement! If I’d been told about six years ago that I would be writing anything that defended the Potter books while somehow also opposing magic practice and mysticism, I’d have thought that was impossible.
The quote is print only, from a hard-to-find, generally expensive print from the small Polish publisher. The book is mostly devoid of actual criticism – he relies mostly on second-hand sources that support his view and never engages the text in a close reading. I can think of perhaps two times in the entire 278 pages that he even quotes (or cites) from the books directly. The only reason I’ve read it is because I am working on a book on the Potter series. I’d be happy to provide the context for the quotes if you’re wanting to use them.
In terms of pagan mysticism practiced by Christians who oppose the Potter books, how many of them are speaking in tongues, which actually traces back to the Oracle of Delphi? How many practice dropping open their Bibles and reading random verses like they were special messages from God, which was started from pagan Roman practices of reading random passages from the Aeneid? How many of them search for hidden codes in the Bible using complex number sequences as pagans searched for hidden messages in their own texts in similar ways? How many use pagan methods of finding the will of God? How many of them constantly interpret events in this world as the impact of angelic or demonic presences when they have no grounds for such things beyond their own feelings? How many of them use repetitive prayer as a way of demanding things from God like it were a mantra?
I’m aware some of those things are complex theological issues on which Christians are divided and I make no claims to that. Nevertheless, some people do treat all of these things as though they were rituals or rites that, if done enough, will result in God’s favor, blessing, whatever.
I was a Potter supporter from the beginning, but welcome to our side of things! I have been gratified to know a lot of Christians who have warmed to the books when they were all finally finished. I do know the feeling of surprise, though! And here’s a few other links, including one from theologian Jerram Barrs discussing the theological themes in Deathly Hallows; and a post on the theology of the Hallows novel versus the film. Some wonderful meditations on the finale of Hallows there.
I would be careful about dismissing that quote as merely an ‘it’s creepy’ thing. Without knowing more about the man, how can you say whether he’s hypersensitive and ‘feeling’ demons in every corner or if he’s genuinely feeling a caution from the Holy Spirit? For all you know, the man has dealt with many demons before and actually does know what it feels like. Now, given the way it’s worded, I’m inclined to think he is hypersensitive, and even if he wasn’t, it wouldn’t automatically mean the Harry Potter books are bad, merely that particular copy may be. How and why the copy would be ‘bad’, I don’t know, but we don’t really know how demons work anyway, do we?
Now, about your second comment here, speaking in tongues does not trace back to the Oracle of Delphi, although there are superficial similarities. It traces back to the early church (Paul’s letters, 1Co 14:5 is a good one) and Pentecost (Acts 2). Also, whether opening your Bible and reading random verses comes from a pagan source or not (are you sure it does? I’m not sure how you’d know), does that mean that God can’t or doesn’t speak to people that way? Of course not! Who are any of us to say that he doesn’t? Now, it certainly is something that requires discernment, as God may not speak to you that way at any particular time, but that doesn’t make it invalid. I’m sure some people take that too far, but, of course, you can go too far the other direction, too. Now, treating these things as rites or rituals that will earn you God’s favor or whatever is obviously wrong, but how do you know which people are doing that unless you happen to know them?
Too many people see demons crawling under every rock and tree, and all too readily (in my humble opinion, as someone who really does believe in physical demons and angels) assign mood shifts and emotional states as sensing dark presences. So that’s one suggestion not to take O’Brien’s comment seriously. I happened to get an elated emotion when reading the Potter books – can I then argue that God sent angels to surround me to lift up my spirit as a sign that the Potter books were God’s gift to mankind? Now, if every Christian on earth who ever set eyes on the books got a dark feeling, maybe the suggestion could be lent more credence. But the world isn’t divided into Christians who get a bad feeling (and who therefore are right) and Christians who are irresponsible, compromised, liberal, unseeing, blinded fools caught up in the deep spiritual trap of Potter. :p
Far be it for me to open a large can of worms that is off topic, but speaking in tongues actually does originate with the Oracle of Delphi. I refer not so much to the expression as to the behavior of bursting forth with strange words in no human language. That is an ancient pagan practice which held no precursor in Old Testament Israel and there is zero evidence was practiced by the church at all.
It is now known that this ecstatic bursting forth with stranger syllables is a natural phenomenon triggered by an overwhelming experience of pent up emotion and has little connection to the spiritual realm. Also, Christian philologists have examined Glossolalia and confirmed that it is not a language at all. There is no example of this sort of behavior anywhere by the Apostles or their parishioners. What we do see is people speaking calmly and rationally in other human languages – in fact, in many cases the speaker is unaware they are speaking another language at all, God simply works it so that the hearer discerns what the speaker is saying in their own language. Now this understanding of speaking in tongues I happily affirm.
As to the origins of the random-verse-of-the-day, the Church fathers spoke against this practice (even though God certainly can use it and did so to convert Augustine). The Christians brought it into the church when Gentile converts, accustomed to doing it to their own holy books, began teaching the Churches how to do with with the Bible. And it really is a form of divination, because it is an attempt to get at God’s will outside of the proscribed means of reading the whole book in context. The whole thing in context is God’s revealed will; His special will for your or my life is one of the secret things we cannot access (Deut. 29:29). We are simply to understand God’s story and His principles and then apply them to our lives in faith that God will bless it (James 5, for instance, or this wonderful little book).
Please show scripture where a “caution from the Holy Spirit” is exemplified. It is my understanding that if a “caution” is felt, it will be backed up by written scripture. Please show scripture that backs up a caution that might be felt when approaching a fiction book of any kind.
Yes, actually, we can discover “how demons work” by reading scripture. Anything else we decide to believe about demons is something we’ve made up or picked up from another, less reliable source. Scripture gives us all we need to know about demons. Things I know from scripture are: 1) demons exist, 2) Jesus can handle it 3) nowhere does scripture suggest that a) demons can be attached to things or that b) a person can “feel” them and scripture is clear that 4) I shouldn’t be “praying” (i.e. talking, commanding or worrying about) to demons. If you can show scripture that refutes any of this, I’d be interested in seeing if it is a hermeneutically correct use of that scripture.
It doesn’t even matter whether “opening your Bible and reading random verses” comes from a pagan source. What matters is that it is not a way that a written communication of any kind should be used, nor is it the way God intended for us to use His written communication (if you think differently, please site scripture to back up your thought). If your boyfriend/lover/husband/partner were to write you a letter, would you open it, close your eyes, and point to a random sentence in it to try to ascertain his meaning? Or would you read the whole thing, start to finish, and gather his meaning from that?
Neither should we use God’s Word to us in such disrespectful way. He wrote it, from beginning to end, with a meaning in mind for it. We are sinning when we use it to “divine” guidance and direction that He did not intend for it.
Can He use our fumbling, sinful attempts to “divine” things? Of course. He can and does use anything. Does that mean we should make a practice of violating both the principle of written communication AND the principle of avoiding mysticism AND reverence for God’s clear communication to us by using scripture to “divine” guidance and direction outside of it’s clear message? No. Unequivocally no. Where grace abounds, should we sin more? No–Romans 5:20-6:1.
I look forward to your scriptural citations.
The place I would expect to see things like ‘cautions from the Holy Spirit’ is Acts, and the way Acts is written prevents that from happening. It doesn’t tell you what people felt, or thought, or anything else like that. How did Peter know Ananias and Sapphira were lying? We don’t know. Maybe God told him with words, maybe he didn’t. It also isn’t mentioned in any of the letters, but it would only be mentioned there if the people it was written to were dealing with it wrongly or something like that. And you can’t possibly have Scripture to back up everything; the Bible would have to be endlessly huge to specifically cover everything we encounter in life. So no, I don’t have Scripture to back up feeling a caution when approaching a fiction book, but neither is there any (that I know of) that says it can’t/won’t happen. And just because the Bible doesn’t say something doesn’t make it false.
Okay, apparently I wasn’t clear enough. I didn’t mean that we don’t know anything about how demons work, but that there is a lot that we don’t know. And while I mostly agree that the Bible gives us all we need to know about demons, that doesn’t mean that there is nothing else we can learn about demons. Certainly anything from outside Scripture has less authority and certainty, but that doesn’t make it false. Of your points: 1 and 2, I agree. 3a, while nothing says they can be (although one could argue that in the case of idols, such things did happen), nothing says they can’t. Also, I have heard of cases where a demon or some other sort of evil spiritual presence certainly seemed to be attached to an object and/or location, but since that’s feelings and experiences, which you don’t seem to consider valid, I won’t bother giving specifics unless you ask for them. 3b, I disagree. In Acts 16:16-18 Paul somehow knows that this girl has a demon, although nothing she says or does seems to indicate this. He may not have sensed it, but it was communicated to him somehow. And again, just because the Bible doesn’t mention it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. 4, what Scripture do you have to back that up? How did Jesus cast out demons? He talked to them. How did the disciples cast out demons? They talked to them. How did Paul cast the demon out of the girl in Acts 16:16-18? He talked to it. He commanded it, specifically. All the examples we have of people casting out demons (that I can think of) involve speaking to the demon. Jesus even asks at least one what its name is! And in Mark 16:17, Jesus says that those who believe in him will cast out demons. Sounds like we’re supposed to talk to them (at least sometimes) to me.
Well, there are quite a few verses that are often quoted by themselves (John 3:16), and many more that are clearly usable on their own (much of Proverbs, for instance, as well as many of the Psalms). As I’ve said, flipping open your Bible and reading a random passage requires discernment, as many verses shouldn’t be used by themselves, but even amongst those, there are many that could apply to a particular situation. It is always dangerous to apply Scripture outside its intended purpose, but that doesn’t make it always wrong. And I’m not sure that it’s disrespectful to open the Bible and read a random passage. What about times when you don’t have a specific Bible study plan you’re following? What about times when someone just pulls a Bible off the shelf and it falls open to a verse with something the person really needed to hear? Proverbs 16:33 seems to suggest that God has no problem with controlling ‘random’ things to get the desired result. With your letter example, I might do both. First you read the whole thing, of course, but some parts I might read over and over again. I might just look at a random part of it just to read the words of the person I love. Reading the whole letter gives you the meaning of the whole letter, sure, but often individual parts of a letter will have their own meaning. How do you know that the wisdom and guidance isn’t from God, and that the Holy Spirit didn’t guide the person doing it to that verse and that use of it? And really, I wouldn’t call it divination; or at least not the way I would do it. The reason I want guidance from God is so I can do what He wants me to do, whether or not it’s going to be comfortable or pleasant. We have many examples of godly people asking God what He wanted them to do, and while I can understand not thinking that flipping your Bible is a very effective way of doing so, I expect that most people who do that don’t know of a better way. I can see how someone might do it as divination, but does that make it wrong for anyone to do? I guess I don’t see how it’s sinful unless the attitude is wrong, even if it is, perhaps, not useful. I’d be interested in seeing some Scripture that you think indicates that it is wrong.
Looking at what you’ve said here, I don’t see any allowance for God to speak personally to His children. You seem to believe Scripture means one thing and one thing only to everyone and everybody, and somehow I doubt you’d accept any other method (such as feelings or a quiet voice in your head). But what kind of person wouldn’t try to communicate personally to those he loves? And you’d want to talk with anyone you loved enough to die for, wouldn’t you?
This seems to view God primarily through the prism of well, that’s what I would do if I were God. Another example: I think that if I were God, I’d find a way to save everyone from rejecting Me. … Doesn’t work with everything, does it? 😉 Evidently He thinks otherwise, the same as He saw it better to give His final, ultimate revelation in writing. That is less susceptible to our well-meaning searches for Secret Information and the less-than-savory sorts of folks who claim “God told me …” and manipulate others, and have nothing to “check” them.
I once had a woman tell me that she and her personal friend, the Holy Spirit, could figure out exactly who was and wasn’t a Christian, based solely on what she “discerned” over Facebook. Without a real, serious, and joyful commitment to the sufficiency of Scripture in spiritual matters, there is no way to head off nonsense like that.
A few of the citations from the book of Acts, above, are descriptive and not prescriptive. Scripture often describes things that happens without suggesting we imitate those behaviors. I’ve had plenty of experiences (look! it seems we agree that experiences can indeed help support but not supplant Scripture 😉 ) in which people said “the Spirit is telling me this” or “God always works in the same ways” or even “this is how God arranged their marriage, so it must be the same with you” to remind me that what Scripture describes is not necessarily what it prescribes. That’s why it’s important to understand different contexts and even literary genres. Example: narratives in the Bible are different from poetry; genealogies from legal codes; epistles from parables.
I’m going to respond to this before your monster comment below… 🙂
Well, I think that God does/did/will do everything He can/will to save everyone from rejecting Him; everything He can without going against His own nature. And sure people can use ‘God told me…’ for their own ends. They do that with Scripture, too. I don’t see why that should stop God from using other methods of communicating with His children. And about this ‘Secret Information’ stuff, I’m not terribly interested in that. What I’m interested in knowing is what God wants me to do, so I can do that instead of going off and doing my own thing. I don’t need to know anything about the future; if I’m going where God wants me to, that’s all I need to know. He can handle the rest.
Now, about this woman you mention, I do not appreciate being compared to her. She is a kook. I am not a kook. 😛 In all seriousness, though, I do think there’s a difference here. You do need to hold everything up to Scripture, and in this case Scripture tells me only God knows the hearts of men, and that I really don’t need to know that myself. And just because some people misuse something doesn’t make it wrong. If so, we’d all be dead, because some people misuse life. A lot of them, actually.
I’m not really sure what you’re trying to say about the quotations from Acts. I mean, sure, just because someone did something in Acts doesn’t mean it’s right (They encounter magicians, and evil people, and plenty of good Christians who didn’t think Gentiles should be allowed), but I’m not sure what that has to do with any of the times I quoted it. Yes, it’s important to understand Scripture properly, and yes, you need to have a good grounding in it; I don’t recall saying otherwise. But I don’t see how that stops God from talking to people through things other than Scripture.
Of course I have some thoughts on this as well, many of them likely to repeat what Esther has said above (and I’m guessing Adam too, should he return!).
First, Arien, thanks for stopping by and politely offering your challenge! This place would not be nearly as enjoyable if everyone were perfectly in lockstep in their beliefs. Furthermore, I do know many Christians who offer poorly thought defenses of, say, the doctrine of Scripture’s sufficiency, and don’t recall that God may speak in other ways.
Here’s what may be the difference between us, though. While I believe God does speak in other ways — such as “speaking” through the beauty of nature, or even a secular story whose plot or characters accidentally echo His truth — I still hold that the primary and only sure source of truth is in His Word. How else would we know there is a God? How else would we know His dealings with people, why His creation is broken and our hearts dead, and what He’s done to restore that relationship, e.g. the Gospel?
Any other truth that we “hear” from Him is secondary to that and points to that ultimate Revelation anyway. Moreover, any other truth is an echo of that greater Word that is indeed sufficient for all our spiritual needs. And while made-up “magic” does not fall under its condemnation, it does forbid actual practice of, say, divination.
Well, he did have this verse, which is a bit hard to debate:
Sure, we need to do some exegesis on this passage, rather than Christians who blurt it our haphazardly at the sign of any supposed “sorcery” in a story. Questions we could ask: what was the context? What did the pagan peoples do? What is “divination” or any of those other terms? What are modern parallels? How do we see these commandments in terms of the Old Covenant? But I think it would be wrong to dismiss this passage as irrelevant, or suggest that (based on supposed silence of Scripture or circular-reasoning appeal to feelings) “divination” is okay so long as we’re trying to get secret knowledge from God rather than spirits.
Here’s how: the same way you believe you’ve discerned a wrong belief here, even though you don’t know me personally and even though I could very well believe that the Holy Spirit is giving me a “nudge” or a “check” to say these things are wrong. 😉
To continue: Scripture gives multiple instructions on how to discern. Listening to “nudges” is never mentioned as a method. Even if someone gets a “nudge,” it’s impossible to know whether it was from the Spirit until perhaps afterward, and if it’s contradictory to God’s revealed Word, it’s not from the Spirit (Who, after all, inspired that Word). His Word claims to be sufficient for all our spiritual needs and to know God’s revealed will for sure. (One of the best resources on this is the book Found: God’s Will by John MacArthur; I also hope soon to read Just Do Something by Kevin DeYoung.) So the thought or “nudge” had to be a random thought; an imagination; a speculation.
We’re all about speculation here, for sure. 😀 But I’d say it’s best to keep that to the realm of fiction — seeking new ways of telling old truths. In other imagined worlds, God may still speak directly to people, as clearly as He did to the Old-Testament-style prophets (all of whom had no doubt when they were hearing directly His voice, which spoke aloud, not through vague “nudges”). But in this world, God’s method of communicating to prophets is past tense; He’s sent his Son now (Hebrews 1).
Again: I do believe the Holy Spirit cautions us directly. But such a caution would not exist independently from God’s Word. And the idea that demons are either the main thing we need to worry about, or that demons can routinely possess objects and thereby be a threat to Christians, contradict Scripture’s direct assertions that people need worry most about the sin from inside them.
I agree — we don’t know how demons work. Why, then, should we try to seek out knowledge that God hasn’t decided to reveal in His Word? Why decide it’s so vital to know? Especially in the Epistles, His inspired battle plans are first against the flesh with only passing references to the (very real and dangerous!) threat of the Devil. Resist him, an Apostle will write, almost fleetingly, before getting back to the main topic of focusing on Christ more than the Devil or demons, living out the fruit of the Gospel, keeping peace with the brethren, and not treating Things as evil (1 Corinthians 8-11:1).
Being fearful of Things is closer to paganism than it is to Christianity. It’s a kind of shamanism, I must say — well-meaning, I’m sure, but insidious and not of the Spirit.
Moreover, there is too much at stake when people, even with the best of intentions, bypass Scripture’s clear wording about how to fight sin against God or against people by pinning all the blame on demons or Things. I’m personally aware of at least one situation in which those involved (again, with great intentions, I’m sure) continually ignored principles of Biblical peacemaking between believers and being joyfully accountable to Biblical local-church leadership (Matthew 18). Instead they wanted to go off into spiritual-warfare hypotheses based on anecdotes and “studies” of how demons were supposedly involved and deceiving us all. Now of course, that may very well have been the truth! But Anecdotes and all that can’t be used to ignore what God has already revealed in Scripture about how to fight our own sin (much less any extra sins the demons may have dredged up). And in fact, if anything, ignoring Scripture for the supposed goal of getting to the “real” issue (demons) surely is part of the Devil’s plan all along to keep people fearful of Him and rejecting God’s Word.
I had thought to comment on this one too — I believe one can’t discuss this without defining what we mean by “speaking in tongues.” There’s a Biblical speaking in tongues, absolutely! Paul talked about it not just in 1 Corinthians 14:5 but in 1 Corinthians 12-14. He lays out a whole long argument, based on this fact: Corinthians church — you’re doing it wrong! They were failing to recognize several truths that Paul outlines:
1. People have different gifts to build up others, not just tongues (1 Corinthians 12).
2. Tongues spoken and other spiritual gifts exercised without love are useless (13:1-2).
3. Tongues wouldn’t be unfruitful private prayers (14:14) but would only be spoken in public to encourage others (14:17).
4. If Paul had to choose, he said he prefers clearer Biblical teaching to tongues (14:19)!
5. A congregation in which tongues-speaking occurs should also have interpretations (14: 27-28)
6. All things should be done in order (14:40).
If indeed tongues continue to this day (and I’m not convinced they’ve stopped), they’d need to follow these parameters that are set up to love others in the Church and visitors from outside. Otherwise, I do believe well-meaning Christians should reevaluate!
As Esther said, a Thing’s origin doesn’t matter so much as whether it’s Biblical. The world may accidentally echo God’s truth, and it might not. And her argument about how the Bible should not be read this way is not only based in how Jesus and the Apostles read the Old Testament, and how the early Christians read Scripture, but how we read anything else today without changing the rules for Scripture. (You may notice that no one, so far, has been “reading random verses” from your own comment! 😀 )
Also as Esther said: God can use anything. Even sin. Doesn’t make it right all the time for every Christian. Arguably God has used the wrong things I’ve written, or even a book like The Shack, as part of His sovereign process to draw someone to true faith in Him. That doesn’t mean, though, that I fail to correct my own errors, or pass out copies of The Shack with its anti-God’s-justice beliefs to every nonbeliever I know, eh wot? 🙂
Summary: Anectoes, Feelings, or Christian or Secular Creative Stuff can certainly remind us of, and reinforce to our minds and memories, God’s Word. But none of that should ever be used to supplant God’s Word, which we should indeed be reading start to finish, in context and carefully, as we read anything else — not as a book whose contents we might (with the best intentions!) wind up using as more like a magic spellbook with advice to fight evil primarily outside ourselves, or to confirm our own impressions.
As I noted in my other comment, St. Augustine himself was saved through the dropping-open-the-Bible method. But God using something and it being an effective, nay, prescribed method God recommends, are two entirely different things.
And Paul himself had no concern whatsoever about demonic influences. It was lawful, after all, to eat food that was intentionally sacrificed to demons, right there in the pagan temple! What was unlawful was making someone uncomfortable with it go with you, and even then it wasn’t a sin to eat it – it was sin to eat it while believing it to be wrong. In the Old Testament, sin contaminated; it flowed by contact from the contaminated to the clean. In the New Testament, Jesus’ cleansing power flows from clean things to the unclean, thereby making them clean again. The apostles followed that trend.
Acts 15:29
You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.
1 Corinthians 10:20-21
…the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons.
Revelation 2:20
Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.
As I recall, it was lawful, and could be done according to Christian freedom, yet Paul did discourage it if a brother/sister would legitimately be confused or “stumble” over it. Regardless, Paul’s argument was not “avoid it because you could get mixed up with demons without even knowing it!” but “avoid it publicly, out of love for others.”
Paul does mention demons, though, and their real involvement, in 1 Corinthians 10: 14-22. Idolatry and honoring demons is a real risk, and Christians should be aware of that. But it arises from inside, the heart, and is “fed” by outside things — not vice-versa.
Great thoughts, Adam (and bonus: you recommended DeYoung’s Just Do Something, which I still need to read though I know I’ll enjoy it). Hope you’ll be sticking around.
DeYoung’s book is marvelous; you certainly will love it! And yes, I plan on sticking around. The posts and discussions are very interesting.
We do have a tendency to misunderstand the “weaker brother” thing. Sometimes it is implied that if any Christian objects, for instance, to you watching an R-rated movie you should not do it. What Paul is discussing is this: if your freedom makes another Christian violate their conscience by practicing that with you, then you have caused them to stumble. In the case of the R-rated movie, if you tell some friends you’re going to see Braveheart and one of them has a problem with it, don’t peer pressure them into doing it. Don’t let them come along and squirm the whole time, going “I shouldn’t have done this, I shouldn’t have done this . . .” A lot of good discussion on this topic here and here.
“I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean,” (Rom. 14:14). “Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats . . . But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith,” (Rom. 14:20, 23).
So within the context of the Potter books, it is not sin for me to read them if my conscience allows it. If your conscience goes all squiggly at the thought, then don’t partake. What is funny about all this is that the Potter critics clearly have conscience problems with the books before they even read them – and then sin against their consciences by cracking the covers open. When O’Brien complains of a dark sinking sensation when he reads the books, he ought to stop and bow out of the discussion, because by continuing he is sinning. Incidentally, the weaker brother in this regard is wrong, even though we are not to pressure them to stumble by partaking, and the stronger brother is to use the opportunity to discuss why he has no problem with his action (Rom. 14:16).
It seems that while the food might have been sacrificed to demons, giving thanks over it and eating it for the glory of God actually cleanses it – because the power of demons are nothing when compared with the might of Christ’s purifying union with us. Even though some have quibbles about meat sacrificed to idols, Paul actually instructs all the Corinthians to eat it (1 Cor. 10:25), because the meat belongs to God no matter who someone thinks they’re dedicating it to (v. 26). This is because eating the meat in thankfulness to God means that one ought not to be denounced for his action (v. 30). Again, it is only when your actions will pressure someone else into doing it with you and violate their own conscience in so doing that you are to abstain.
Just to clarify, Stephen, the other article didn’t come across as “Scripture first”, it came across as “God never will speak to you in any other way beyond an audible voice or the Bible”. That was my issue with it (and I think Arien’s too). I definitely don’t think “feelings” should ever take precedence over what God has revealed in His Word.
Nice summary, btw. 🙂
Arien;
Please understand that I am enjoying our conversation and do appreciate your interaction: these are important concepts which we are all responsible for before God. That is why I may come across as harsh and overly passionate about it. I hope I do not, but please try to read what I write as if we are friends, and not adversaries.
So you’re saying that God left something out of the Bible? It’s not clear and sufficient? And are you also saying that because He left it out, we get to “infer” things that aren’t there?
What if your SO’s letter said something like “Let’s meet for coffee to discuss the organization of the event”. Would it be a correct interpretation if you said to yourself after reading that “Oh! Finally here it is…his proposal! See, he really just left that part out, and he MEANS to ask me to marry him”. How foolish. If God didn’t SAY that there were “cautions” to be experienced, nor does He give instruction on how to handle them in Acts or other places, then it’s very possible, even probable, that there ARE no “cautions” we can trust, nor should we make a practice of seeking them.
“Nothing says they [demons] can’t [be attached to objects]”. Nothing in the Bible says they can or can’t, we don’t even have an example of it in scripture. So how can you know? What citations can you give that show that they can–in other words, to what authority do you appeal for knowledge of the theory that demons can attach themselves to objects? Is that authority valid–as valid as scripture written by the Person Who created demons? If there is no way to know, why would you act as if they can? Did God leave this out of scripture, too? If they can attach themselves to things, where is scripture that tells us how to deal with them?
Scripture is actually quite clear concerning the evidence Paul used to discern that the girl had a demon–and it wasn’t “feeling” or “caution”. This is sloppy hermeneutics. Verses 17 and 18 give the evidence for her possession–and everyone knew it, not just Paul. Furthermore, he let her continue to be possessed and to annoy him for DAYS before he did anything about it!
Again, sloppy hermeneutics. What is DESCRIPTIVE in scripture is not necessarily PRESCRIPTIVE. By your reasoning, I could righteously go and hang myself, simply because Judas did. Yes, Jesus talked and commanded demons–His right and prerogative. Not PRESCRIPTIVE for us. Same for Paul…just because Paul did it, does not mean it is something for all other disciples to do–Paul was an apostle. Further: if you’re going to use Mark 16:17 as prescriptive for all believers, then I need to ask you–when was the last time you picked up a dangerous serpent or drank poison?
If I ever meet a demon personally, I will know what to do about it. I will pray–to JESUS, Who knows how to handle them. Oh, and by the way–can a demon attach to any book? Like…could a demon attach to THE BIBLE? Why or why not–cite scripture.
I don’t think your definition of “discernment” and my definition of “discernment” are the same. How do you define it? More importantly, how does God define it? As for John 3:16–yes, it is often quoted by itself, seldom randomly, and most often completely out of context with a meaning that it does not carry at all.
Please note that I carefully delineated the type of “random” reading of scripture that is prohibited: I said “random reading of scripture FOR GUIDANCE AND DIRECTION”. Certainly, you might read a random passage from your lover’s letter just to remind yourself of what he said, but that would indeed be AFTER you read it in context, and therefore WITH context in mind. And as far as your final question above, I can turn that question around with equal veracity: How do you know that the wisdom and guidance IS from God, and that the Holy Spirit DID guide the person doing it to that verse and that use of it? How can you know FOR SURE? Because, you see, I’m quite willing to use scripture that way IF I CAN BE SURE. Then, I can again follow Judas’ example without fear of retribution or blasphemy. After all, my bible fell open to that verse this morning when I pulled it off the shelf–“Judas went and hanged himself”. And just to make sure, I shut it and opened it again, and the verse that popped up was “go thou and do likewise”.???
For clarity: scripture cannot be used “randomly” for guidance and direction, divorced from its intended context and meaning. Proverbs, by the way, is not random, and using principles from it is perfectly acceptable BECAUSE of the genre in which it is written. And of course it is fine to be encouraged by a certain passage of scripture, even if short–it’s just not a righteous use of scripture to use it as an “omen” as in my example above.
Really? Well, if the “way you do it” is anything like the above example involving Judas, then yes, it is properly called divination. However, I am willing to hear what your method is, and we can both refer to the rules of hermeneutics and interpretation and decide whether your method is valid.
The only reason you don’t see any allowance for God to speak personally in what I’ve said is because we haven’t discussed that aspect yet. Scripture MEANS one thing, and one thing only to everyone and everybody. BUT it is APPLICABLE to many, infinitely many, lives and situations.
I do not discount feelings or quiet voices. I have had experience with them. However, my experience with them only proves more surely that I need to TEST EVERYTHING. I go to scripture to make sure that any feelings or quiet voices stand up to the whole counsel of scripture, because I have had both feelings and voices that did stand up, and those that DID NOT–and because I listened and acted when I should have been testing, I was led astray. Thankfully, God used that, too–but I’m learning that there is another source of feelings and voices–i.e., my own sinfulness–that is not to be trusted. The only way for me to be SURE something is from God, is to test it by the Word.
The “feeling” that a certain copy of a book has a demon attached is completely untestable by scripture (well, so is the structure of an atom: however, that is testable by other means). Therefore, that “feeling” can be safely ignored…its source is something BESIDES the Holy Spirit. Truth ALWAYS trumps experience. ALWAYS.
<blockquote>So you’re saying that God left something out of the Bible? It’s not clear and sufficient? And are you also saying that because He left it out, we get to “infer” things that aren’t there?
What if your SO’s letter said something like “Let’s meet for coffee to discuss the organization of the event”. Would it be a correct interpretation if you said to yourself after reading that “Oh! Finally here it is…his proposal! See, he really just left that part out, and he MEANS to ask me to marry him”. How foolish. If God didn’t SAY that there were “cautions” to be experienced, nor does He give instruction on how to handle them in Acts or other places, then it’s very possible, even probable, that there ARE no “cautions” we can trust, nor should we make a practice of seeking them.</blockquote>
Did God leave stuff out of the Bible? Of course he did! Read John. Not only does he jump around all over the place, but at the end he even says that he left out a bunch of stuff (John 21:25). As for the bit in Acts, the stuff that was ‘left out’ was stuff that the writer couldn’t possibly know without God telling him. Which, of course, God could do, but he clearly didn’t. And if you’re talking about my suggesting that some things might not be mentioned because there was no need at the time, I’m not sure how that’s so improbable. And what I’m saying is that where the Bible is silent, we have only our reason and hints from other parts of the Bible to go on. Further, the Bible is quite clearly not in and of itself clear (that’s part of why there are so many Christian denominations). Sufficient, well along with the Holy Spirit, yes, to a certain extent. You don’t need anything else, but there are, of course, other things that can help. Exegesis, for instance.
Anyway, as for the letter example, that’s a bit absurd. Just because my theoretical SO doesn’t tell me that she had coffee with a friend doesn’t mean she didn’t. And so if that friend happens to tell me she did, I would, quite reasonably, assume that was indeed the case. And since I not only find the idea of ‘cautions’ from God probable, but know of times where it both happened and worked out well, I would therefore assume, in the lack of evidence to the contrary, that God does indeed use them.
<blockquote>“Nothing says they [demons] can’t [be attached to objects]“. Nothing in the Bible says they can or can’t, we don’t even have an example of it in scripture. So how can you know? What citations can you give that show that they can–in other words, to what authority do you appeal for knowledge of the theory that demons can attach themselves to objects? Is that authority valid–as valid as scripture written by the Person Who created demons? If there is no way to know, why would you act as if they can? Did God leave this out of scripture, too? If they can attach themselves to things, where is scripture that tells us how to deal with them?</blockquote>
How do I know? I don’t. From the experience of others, however, I have reason to believe that demons can indeed become attached to objects in some form. Is it as valid as Scripture? No, but that’s true of pretty much everything. Now, it certainly might not work the way I think it does, and I know that, which is why I’m perfectly willing to revise my opinion on it if I should see a good reason to do so. The reason I mentioned the possibility is because far too often I see people acting as if they know with certainty something that we really don’t actually know, and it looked like a case of that to me. I still don’t think that’s actually what was going on in the situation that brought it up. As for how to deal with them, the same way as you would if they weren’t, I assume. If, as you suggest later in your comment, praying to Jesus will work for a demon under normal circumstances, why not other times?
<blockquote>Scripture is actually quite clear concerning the evidence Paul used to discern that the girl had a demon–and it wasn’t “feeling” or “caution”. This is sloppy hermeneutics. Verses 17 and 18 give the evidence for her possession–and everyone knew it, not just Paul. Furthermore, he let her continue to be possessed and to annoy him for DAYS before he did anything about it!</blockquote>
Yes and no. You’re right that it wasn’t as good of an example as I thought it was at first, and I should have taken a closer look at it. But it still doesn’t tell us how Paul knew (although, looking over it, your idea does seem likely) or even that it was common knowledge. After all, when a demon is cast out of someone, you know it was there before it was cast out, right? And it’s possible that the writer of Acts was using information obtained later. Not that any of this matters much, really, as it does seem more likely that it was common knowledge.
<blockquote>Again, sloppy hermeneutics. What is DESCRIPTIVE in scripture is not necessarily PRESCRIPTIVE. By your reasoning, I could righteously go and hang myself, simply because Judas did. Yes, Jesus talked and commanded demons–His right and prerogative. Not PRESCRIPTIVE for us. Same for Paul…just because Paul did it, does not mean it is something for all other disciples to do–Paul was an apostle. Further: if you’re going to use Mark 16:17 as prescriptive for all believers, then I need to ask you–when was the last time you picked up a dangerous serpent or drank poison?
If I ever meet a demon personally, I will know what to do about it. I will pray–to JESUS, Who knows how to handle them. Oh, and by the way–can a demon attach to any book? Like…could a demon attach to THE BIBLE? Why or why not–cite scripture.</blockquote>
Ah, no, not really. Hanging yourself is never suggested to be the right way to do anything. Yes, Jesus had the authority to do what he did. Yes, Paul did as well. How do you know we do not? And if that’s the wrong way for us to do it, then where in the Bible does it say how we should do it? You seem to think that this is a problem in the case of demons attached to objects, but not demons possessing people. As for Mark 16:17, it is clearly for all believers. Looking at both the English and the Greek, the believers who Mark 16:16 are saying are saved are quite clearly the same people who these signs are supposed to be following. The Greek word is exactly the same. If we aren’t supposed to be able to cast out demons, then apparently we aren’t going to heaven, either. As for the last time I picked up a deadly serpent or drank poison, I never have. Do notice Jesus doesn’t say that we should go about doing it. But God certainly is capable of saving me in such a situation, so I’m not really worried about that.
As for demons attaching to the Bible, it wouldn’t surprise me either way. It isn’t the physical book that’s holy, it’s the words, but you never know. As for citing Scripture, there isn’t any Scripture either way on it. Also, I would like to point out here that the only times you’ve quoted Scripture in this comment are when you’re using the ones I mentioned. For someone who is so insistent on me using Scripture to show that my points are valid, you aren’t using it much yourself. So, in anything you say to respond to this comment, please use Scripture. Otherwise this isn’t going to go anywhere, since we seem to have extremely different ideas about things the Bible doesn’t talk about.
<blockquote>I don’t think your definition of “discernment” and my definition of “discernment” are the same. How do you define it? More importantly, how does God define it? As for John 3:16–yes, it is often quoted by itself, seldom randomly, and most often completely out of context with a meaning that it does not carry at all.</blockquote>
Oh, bleh, I’m not good at defining things. What I mean by ‘discernment’ in this case is that you have to discern whether or not the verse is actually God speaking to you. For instance, if it is ‘Judas went and hanged himself’, I’d say it isn’t God. And if the next one is ‘Go and do likewise’, it definitely isn’t from God. As for how God defines it, I don’t know. He hasn’t told me. Nor do I expect Him to.
<blockquote>Please note that I carefully delineated the type of “random” reading of scripture that is prohibited: I said “random reading of scripture FOR GUIDANCE AND DIRECTION”. Certainly, you might read a random passage from your lover’s letter just to remind yourself of what he said, but that would indeed be AFTER you read it in context, and therefore WITH context in mind. And as far as your final question above, I can turn that question around with equal veracity: How do you know that the wisdom and guidance IS from God, and that the Holy Spirit DID guide the person doing it to that verse and that use of it? How can you know FOR SURE? Because, you see, I’m quite willing to use scripture that way IF I CAN BE SURE. Then, I can again follow Judas’ example without fear of retribution or blasphemy. After all, my bible fell open to that verse this morning when I pulled it off the shelf–”Judas went and hanged himself”. And just to make sure, I shut it and opened it again, and the verse that popped up was “go thou and do likewise”.??? </blockquote>
I don’t know for sure, and I don’t need to. Usually, though, it’s pretty easy to tell whether it means anything or not, but it depends. And just to clarify, I don’t suggest basing your decisions off of random Bible verses, at least not usually. As for your example, God does not ever tell you to hang yourself, so you can know WITH CERTAINTY that God is not telling you to do that. He might be telling you to laugh, though. 🙂 Anyway, I guess I don’t see how using a random Scripture verse when you can’t decide is worse than picking randomly any other way.
<blockquote>For clarity: scripture cannot be used “randomly” for guidance and direction, divorced from its intended context and meaning. Proverbs, by the way, is not random, and using principles from it is perfectly acceptable BECAUSE of the genre in which it is written. And of course it is fine to be encouraged by a certain passage of scripture, even if short–it’s just not a righteous use of scripture to use it as an “omen” as in my example above.</blockquote>
Indeed. And where in the Bible does it say that Scripture can’t be used that way? That is your opinion, not, as far as I can tell, anything with more backing than that.
<blockquote>Really? Well, if the “way you do it” is anything like the above example involving Judas, then yes, it is properly called divination. However, I am willing to hear what your method is, and we can both refer to the rules of hermeneutics and interpretation and decide whether your method is valid.</blockquote>
Not the ‘way I do it’, the ‘way I would do it’. I haven’t done anything like that for some time. So, really, I think you should define what you mean by divination, since I wouldn’t call even the Judas example divination. According to the dictionary I looked at, divination involves attempting to foresee the future. Which, as I have said, I have no interest in. The way I would do it would be to open my Bible without trying to open it to any specific place, and possibly point to a section, but maybe not, and look around. If there happens to be anything connected to whatever it is I’m dealing with, I’d consider it. Then move on. The last time I did that, there was certainly no part of the Bible that would have, in context, told me with any certainty, but, looking back at it, the choice I made was definitely the right one. Was it because of looking at random Bible verse? I can’t say. I really don’t think it’s useful very often, but I don’t think it’s wrong.
<blockquote>The only reason you don’t see any allowance for God to speak personally in what I’ve said is because we haven’t discussed that aspect yet. Scripture MEANS one thing, and one thing only to everyone and everybody. BUT it is APPLICABLE to many, infinitely many, lives and situations.
I do not discount feelings or quiet voices. I have had experience with them. However, my experience with them only proves more surely that I need to TEST EVERYTHING. I go to scripture to make sure that any feelings or quiet voices stand up to the whole counsel of scripture, because I have had both feelings and voices that did stand up, and those that DID NOT–and because I listened and acted when I should have been testing, I was led astray. Thankfully, God used that, too–but I’m learning that there is another source of feelings and voices–i.e., my own sinfulness–that is not to be trusted. The only way for me to be SURE something is from God, is to test it by the Word.
The “feeling” that a certain copy of a book has a demon attached is completely untestable by scripture (well, so is the structure of an atom: however, that is testable by other means). Therefore, that “feeling” can be safely ignored…its source is something BESIDES the Holy Spirit. Truth ALWAYS trumps experience. ALWAYS.</blockquote>
Oh, well there’s the problem then. Okay, look; if you open to a random Bible verse, and you think it tells you to make one choice instead of another, does that mean you think the verse means that you should make this choice? No, just that you think it’s applicable. Would you still consider it divination if someone asked God to show him a verse applicable to some situation or belief or whatever, and then started looking randomly? Suppose this is a new Christian, without anyone around he can ask for help, and he’s been confronted with a belief or whatever that he isn’t sure about, and wants to check the Bible. How would you suggest he proceed?
And why does everyone seem to assume that I wouldn’t be checking this stuff against Scripture? Of course I’d do that, and not doing that is wrong! Of course, you don’t always have time for a thorough check, but that’s part of why you study the Bible, so that you get to the point where you’ll usually know if something is un-Biblical without looking it up.
And really, where in the Bible does it say that because a feeling isn’t testable by Scripture means it isn’t from the Holy Spirit? You may be right, but it seems like an awfully blanket statement to be making without direct Scriptural backing.
And finally, yes, truth trumps experience, because if the experience isn’t truth, than it was clearly perceived wrongly. But I fail to see what that statement has to do with what you said before it.
Really, though, I don’t think this discussion is going to go anywhere. We seem to have fairly contradictory views about a lot of things, which makes it hard to discuss things.
Oh, and, um, how do you get the quote thing to work? The button that seems like the right one looks to effect everything, no matter what I do, and my attempt to make it work anyway doesn’t work. I assume I’m missing something obvious… Use a different browser, maybe?
There are so many theological and biblical problems, Arien, with this post, that in order to avoid a) hijacking the comment thread further from the point E. Stephen is making in his article and b) continue on with the things God has given me to do IRL, here’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to quote only that with which I can agree; then I’m going to suggest some reading material for you; lastly, I will do as you ask and quote several (though not all) scriptures that tell us about, well, scripture, and how we are to treat it, take it, and let it communicate to us. Further than that, I will not engage in this conversation—it is not my place to instruct you from afar in doctrine when I have other jobs to do and God is sovereign and will leave nothing undone in teaching you all you need to know.
>>Exegesis, for instance.<<
Precisely. Have you studied the process of exegesis, perchance? It’s a rhetorical question, no need to answer. Acts 17:11, 2 Timothy 2:15
>>that God does indeed use them.<<
Never argued that He doesn’t. He does. 1 Thessalonians 5:17
>>Ah, no, not really. Hanging yourself is never suggested to be the right way to do anything.<<
Precisely my point. However, your suggestions of how we should take scripture and add to it our own ideas and nudges and cautions would, should I decide to subscribe to them, allow me to take these scriptures as if it WERE the right way to do something. Revelation 2:18-19
>>You seem to think that this is a problem in the case of demons attached to objects, but not demons possessing people.<<
There is. That’s right.
>>As for Mark 16:17, it is clearly for all believers. Looking at both the English and the Greek, the believers who Mark 16:16 are saying are saved are quite clearly the same people who these signs are supposed to be following. The Greek word is exactly the same.<<
Then we can also handle snakes and drink poison, and, in fact, should. To prove we are believers. I’m cool with that. All I’m asking is consistency.
>>Do notice Jesus doesn’t say that we should go about doing it. But God certainly is capable of saving me in such a situation, so I’m not really worried about that.<<
I did, in fact, notice that. Applied to ALL the scriptures in this reference, it certainly makes sense. And I agree…God IS capable of saving us should we meet such a situation.
>>So, in anything you say to respond to this comment, please use Scripture.<<
Please see below.
>>Oh, bleh, I’m not good at defining things. What I mean by ‘discernment’ in this case is that you have to discern whether or not the verse is actually God speaking to you. For instance, if it is ‘Judas went and hanged himself’, I’d say it isn’t God. And if the next one is ‘Go and do likewise’, it definitely isn’t from God. As for how God defines it, I don’t know. He hasn’t told me. Nor do I expect Him to.<<
Actually, I agree…it isn’t God who would tell someone to hang themselves, especially by the method of divination used when someone pulls a Bible off a shelf and lets it fall open to a verse which they then use as guidance and direction. But I don’t agree because it’s what YOU say. I agree because that is BAD exegesis, and very efficient, but blasphemous, divination.
God does define discernment in scripture. Best we use His definition. 1 Kings 3:9
>>Anyway, I guess I don’t see how using a random Scripture verse when you can’t decide is worse than picking randomly any other way.<<
I agree. So don’t pick randomly. Proverbs 3:6
>>Of course, you don’t always have time for a thorough check, but that’s part of why you study the Bible, so that you get to the point where you’ll usually know if something is un-Biblical without looking it up.<<
I agree.
>>Oh, and, um, how do you get the quote thing to work? The button that seems like the right one looks to effect everything, no matter what I do, and my attempt to make it work anyway doesn’t work. I assume I’m missing something obvious… Use a different browser, maybe?<<
The quote icon does indeed look as if it makes everything a quote, until you put your cursor where you want the quote to end, and click the quote icon again, which toggles it off. Sorry, don’t have a scripture for that one ;P
Suggested reading: any systematic theology. Wayne Grudem’s would appeal to you. And don’t feel you have to read the whole thing…you could probably just read Part 1: The Doctrine of The Word of God, and get plenty of help with making your foundation more sure. Suggested viewing: Herman Who? From Wretched Radio, http://www.wretchedradio.com.
Scriptures on scripture—in no particular order:
2 Peter 1:20–21 (ESV)
20knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.
21For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 4:4 (ESV)
4But he answered, “It is written, “ ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’ ”
John 6:63 (ESV)
63It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
The entirety of Psalm 119
Jude 3
Proverbs 3:5 (ESV)
5Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
2 Timothy 2:15 (ESV)
15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
Hebrews 4:12–13 (ESV)
12For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
13And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Acts 17:11 (ESV)
11Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
Acts 20:32 (ESV)
32And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
1 Peter 1:25 (ESV)
25but the word of the Lord remains forever.” And this word is the good news that was preached to you.
2 Timothy 3:16–17 (ESV)
16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
17that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
And now, I withdraw from this aspect of the conversation, and wish you Godspeed, knowing that He who calls you is faithful. I thank you for the discussion!
Yeah, that’s mostly what I had a problem with as well. Thanks, Leanna; I’ve never been good at putting things like that simply. 🙂
The other thing I had a problem with, though, was the whole ‘divination’ thing. He seems to assume that the only reason anyone would want God’s help with decisions is to be absolved of responsibility. The reason I want God’s help with decisions is because I don’t want to go off my own way; I want to go God’s way. I don’t see that as divination. Think about missionaries; most of them, as far as I know, believed that God was calling them to be a missionary, usually to a specific place. I don’t think they got that just from reading Scripture. Usually it involves a strong burning desire to help whatever group of people, and a conviction that God wanted them to do it by being a missionary. And I don’t think that qualifies as divination either.
So many well-meaning but wrong beliefs about how to discern God’s will before making any kind of decision. I’d encourage reading Esther‘s comment about the foundational differences — hermeneutics, exegesis vs. reading-into-verses — and perhaps the resources mentioned above about the God’s-will myths. 🙂
Er, what? You suggest discerning God’s will after making the decision? That doesn’t seem terribly useful to me… And, not to be dense or anything, but what are these resources you mention?
*Is a long-time lurker on the site, and first time poster*
I’m afraid I’m mostly with Arien on this. (Wow, this is the first time I’ve ever disagreed with the SpecFaith writers on something! It feels weird. o.O ) For one thing, I do think that God and the Holy Spirit can personally lead us through a sort of “nudge”. But it is much different from just a feeling. I suppose it’s the same sort of thing you get which Stephen mentioned – about how, if God doesn’t want you to do/watch/read a particular thing, he’ll show you. That said, I have seen people confuse their own feelings with this; and that is something you have to be careful to avoid. Also, while I do believe in these sort of “nudges”, I don’t believe they should replace the Bible. And any “nudge” that contradicts scripture obviously wouldn’t be from God.
I believe Christians have the power to cast out demons, because I believe Christ gave that to us. I agree with Arien on that – I don’t see why that scripture would be referring to Christ and the apostles only.
I’ve seen this site many times say that we Christians can do things since the Apostles and Christ did them. I don’t see why this example should be the one exception.
Plus, after as much spiritual problems my family has had in our own house, I’ve gotten the chance to see my dad, mom, and myself effectively cast spirits out.
Some further thoughts, though the discussion may be winding down. I’ll respond to several of the above comments, in the order they appear at this point …
From Leanna:
One need not even address the question of feelings, then. In the column I did, I believe, make a more-firm case that Christians accidentally practice “divination” when they rely on feelings primarily, rather than studying God’s revealed Word (which will, of course, increasingly result in internalized wisdom and emotions that love Him and detest evil).
Accidental divination does occur when a Christian tries to know something that only God knows, and/or use that information to control his circumstances or make a choice.
Deut. 18: 9-14 is clear that several things were an abomination to God then, and presumably haven’t changed now (because, although God spoke much of His Law in a certain context, the exegesis issues are trickier than just “we’re under grace now”!). Among those things are trying to talk to the dead, reading omens to determine what to do, or divination — trying to get secret information from the dead or other things.
A Christian reading Harry Potter will find some of those very things, arguably, shown in a fantasy-world setting. Harry does talk to “ghosts,” and the “impressions” of people who have died, and there is at least one documented case of future-telling by an otherwise ridiculous character who never practices actual divination. But, I ask, will the reader be personally tempted to engage in those practices in the real world? If so, I suggest this reader should avoid the series — just as a Christian tempted to drunkenness should avoid all sorts of drinking, or a Christian tempted to lust should avoid the beach. To say that reading automatically equals imitation of these sins would be a stretch.
But it’s not a stretch to find and gently point out the very real examples of real-world divination, omen-reading, and fortune-telling practiced among Christians today.
More from Leanna:
Yet that was the apostolic age. All Christians believe, in some way, that while God Personally does not change, He has carried out His single Gospel plan to redeem a people for Himself in various ways throughout history. We don’t do sacrifices anymore; that part of the plan, the story God re-told from the Fall about how sin requires something to die, was fulfilled in Christ. We don’t go into specific lands and kill people; that was God’s good command to the Israelites only, at that “phase” of redemptive history. And not every Christian was shown, even in the book of Acts, as getting regular intrusions from the Holy Spirit about what to do. Mainly the Apostles were shown to experience this.
Recall also that Acts spans over a 30-year period. In that timespan, it’s surprising how “little” the Spirit intruded specifically with a directive, a vision, or a dream. And when He did, He did so when people were already on the move. Nowhere does Scripture endorse waiting and “listening” and practicing before hearing from God. If He wants to break in with an impulse or whatever, He will. No “process” is laid out for how to get more of that or become advanced to “level up,” contrary to books and materials, I’m sure with good intentions, who encourage what can only be called divination.
From Arien:
This sounds well and good, even workable, but as blogger Dan Phillips points out, in his two-part series about specific authors’ endorsement of the “find the secret will” view:
That’s the point: not that every person will end up being reckless and “kooky,” but that there’s nothing in this kind of view by itself that would prevent kookiness.
More from Arien:
But as Esther overviewed above, Scripture is sufficient for these things. What God wants you do to is this: get saved, grow in holiness, be a part of His Church, obey His revealed Word, and then, after that, do what you want. I know this can sound very “unspiritual,” and it’s scary! But that’s where the wonderful world of Christ-influenced and -exalting free will comes in. Yes, this is one of those “Reformed” guys, who can be annoying about God’s sovereignty, attempting to lecture against fatalism and in favor of meaningful free-will choice! 😀 It can happen. But the only reason why we can have freedom to make these choices, without trying to discern God’s secret knowledge and plan in advance, is because we know He is sovereign. He has given us enough specific revelation in His Word to get started. Nothing in His Word endorses the notion of waiting around to get custom directions in advance.
I quite agree: Things are not bad just because people misuse them. I’ve argued this about the Harry Potter books, fantasy in general, and even not-harmful breathing methods and other things that pagan yoga people just happened to find first.
Again, my point is not “some people might misuse it,” but that nothing in this “method” itself is based in Scripture or prevents wild, kooky misuse.
Let me ask this: are you sure God wanted you to write your comments a few days ago? Did you pray and get specific leading before you wrote every word? I doubt it; and even if you did, I doubt anyone does that before every single little decision. Moreover:
More from Arien:
Acts gets cited a lot when it comes to this stuff. And I have found a better resource about this than the anti-divination article I included above (more in that in a moment). This is from Stand to Reason Ministries‘ recent newsletter, whose PDF is available here. (You have to sign up to get back issues, including Part 1 of this excellent series.)
The writer, Greg Koukl, also presents a great summary of why he’s writing the series:
Back to Leanna:
Thanks for your encouragement. And upon further thoughts, I do believe not only the tone but the content of that article could be overdone, or at least come across that way. Recently I’ve noticed a pushback against real anti-Scripture’s-sufficiency views that do seem to overcorrect. It’s almost as if, in response to you saying you could see God’s handiwork in a sunset, such critics would cry out: Oh, yeah?! Scripture is sufficient! It minimizes the fact that God can, and does, let His truth be echoed in other ways. For more, see my April column Seeing truth reflections in light of Scripture.
Some people, though, do treat the echoes as if they’re equivalent to God’s Word, and that’s wrong. And I think that we ought to find what’s right about even the overdone critiques and consider that, before we push back ourselves and remind such zealous critics that “all truth is God’s truth” and that other things can echo His primary Word. But let’s be careful not to get the echoes confused with the original Voice in writing. 🙂
Anyway, I think Koukl’s articles on Does God Whisper? offer a more-balanced approach. That also partly answers Arien‘s question, quoted below:
Arien, I think you’re doing what I did this past Christmas, when I insisted there simply had to be a Christmas-scented candle at Wal-Mart with a wood wick that would give a crackling-fire sound effect. 😉 You’re making up a product. Trying to get God’s secret will in advance of making a decision (or a big decision? what’s the difference?) is simply not something God ever promises. It’s a made-up product. Instead, as said above, God may give us wisdom through His revealed Word to make choices freely, after we have already followed His revealed will to be saved, pursue growth in holiness and love of Himself and His people, and obey His commands to confirm that. Have you done all these things? Probably not — all true Christians are still striving! But are you trying? Do other Godly people confirm your growth! If so, great! Now go do what you want and trust God to work His sovereign, secret will in your free choices.
Lastly, I’ll consider Izzy‘s thoughts:
Thanks for your encouragement! Yes, I do read that as encouraging. It does happen, of course, and certainly amongst ourselves. I still believe that eventually I’ll need to voice disagreement with Becky about whether eating “meat sacrificed to idols” was always banned if you knew what the meat was, or whether Paul clarified in a different context the Church’s original letter about that in the book of Acts. But I prefer to stall on that. 😉
This is why I hope to write more, for SF’s featured-articles side, about discernment.
I also believe the Holy Spirit can “lead” us like that. But we need to be careful with our language lest we give way to that Gnostic-like “custom special knowledge” notion that can so easily infect us all. Are such “nudges,” if we want to call them that, based on new information? I contend no. If we get them, they’re based on the careful Scripture study we have already undertaken and our internalization of God’s Word to the point of wisdom — knowledge rightly applied. Surely this can “sink” to the level of instinct, and indeed we could say that is the Spirit working within us as a “custom” approach. But it’s based on knowledge that results in emotion, not vice-versa. We know what the Spirit said in His Word, we know our own weaknesses and what will tempt us personally to sin, and thus God has “shown” things to us — with His Word.
And sadly, in every case I’ve seen in which someone says “my custom-made new-knowledge nudges are subject to God’s Word,” the reverse occurs. The anecdote/feeling/whatever trumps God’s written Word. I must point out that I’ve seen that reflected here: that if people get “feelings” about demons, etc., or thinks they know how they operate (while Scripture doesn’t care to tell us someone else’s story), it’s not only the lack of Scripture’s information on the subject that is ignored, but contradicted.
Therefore instead of looking to Scripture for sin-combating strategies that focus on the heart, people play the fun game of Pin the Blame on the Demon. Yes, a demon might indeed be involved, but Scripture never says to figure that out first. It says to fight sin internally — a much less glamorous and more humbling exercise! — and in that way war against the flesh, and by proxy the evil spiritual forces of the Devil.
This is the best possible example. But others, without the “controls” I mentioned and quoted about earlier, go even further. Suddenly what Scripture is so clearly set against — divorce, unkindness, arrogance, sexual sin — becomes “okay” because someone claims God granted them and them personally a Special Exception. Not cool. Not Biblical. And not glorifying to God. And, sadly, not at all against the logical progression when feelings and imagined “promptings” supplant Scripture instead of being thought to echo or reflect its truths and help us internalize them.
Now for the rest of those resources, for further reading. Adam already mentioned DeYoung’s book Just Do Something. Its full title is actually:
– Just Do Something: How to Make a Decision Without Dreams, Visions, Fleeces, Open Doors, Random Bible Verses, Casting Lots, Liver Shivers, Writing in the Sky, etc.
I haven’t actually read this yet, but I hope to soon, as I’m a strong DeYoung fan. He’s a good writer, solid yet entertaining, and very careful to offer Biblically balanced views.
These two articles offer strong pushback against the “seek God’s secret will” view, to the point of not discussing how the truths already written in God’s Word may echo in other ways. Still, that doesn’t discount the solid reasoning to support sola Scriptura.
Yet I still believe the best answers I’ve found so far are in Greg Koukl’s new series. Again, you have to sign up to access most of these newsletters (and part 2 will likely be unavailable soon without signing up). I think it’s worth it, and signing up is free.
This one may also be very helpful. With care to ensure clarity and disclaimers about what this does not mean, Koukl addresses the whole “God gave me this verse” concept. “Evangelicals have developed a dangerous habit of looking for verses that they think the Spirit ‘impresses’ on them with personal messages,” the article summary readers.
The main newsletter page, with sign-up options, is here.
And now, finally my longest comment yet (surely!) for SF is over. Hope it was helpful!