1. Jo Michelle says:

    I have one thing to say. You know what’s missing from this conversation about race and diversity here on Speculative Faith in the last few weeks?

    Racial diversity.

    Could you invite as many minority writers to share their thoughts and experiences with race and diversity, as the number of white men you’ve published, sharing their opinions about this issue?

    Do you *have* any minority authors you can invite to contribute?

    If not, maybe start there. ?

    • I know what you mean, but it bears saying that Christians ARE minority writers. Taking a look at Enclave Publishing’s lineup, I don’t see a single non-Caucasian writer on the list.

      Autumn (who is “bi-racial”) basically wrote her own article in the comment section of the previous article. She could submit, but from what I can tell, it would re-enforce a lot of the basic ideas these “non-minority” writers have put down. Any other racially diverse writers should submit their own articles, as well.

      Jo, if you know writers with “racial diversity,” why don’t you extend the invite to them, as well? Since you’re so fixated on it, maybe you should take a step with them toward solving what you’ve identified. I’d like to hear more thoughts and personal experiences, too.

      • Here’s a sermon from Voddie Baucham (a black man), who is currently the Dean of Theology at African Christian University in Lusaka, Zambia, on “race.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ5JZ9MUfKA

        • Jo Michelle says:

          Race is a concept that is deeply unbiblical. But it’s also a concept that deeply shaped our country as our founding fathers had to find a way to reconcile slavery with their faith. So they invented the “white” race.

          And through colonialism, that concept of race shaped much of the world.

          It doesn’t exist biologically. It exists socially. Just because race isn’t a problem for you, that doesn’t mean it’s not a problem for a racial minority in America.

          • I don’t think race is intrinsically unbiblical. Division and discrimination based on race is unbiblical. I think, like Mr. Perry, that our concept of race in the West is very, very lacking.

            The Bible teaches that our physical bodies will be resurrected in the New World. Doesn’t that mean we all will retain our racial distinctions? If something were wrong with race in and of itself, wouldn’t Jesus wash our new bodies clean from racial distinctions?

      • Jo Michelle says:

        Honestly? This is something that has to come from the top down. The people who run this site would need to make that a goal and go after it. This is the problem with hoping for “naturally developing” diversity, instead of “forced” diversity.

        To truly change something that is so ingrained, you have to have leadership by-in and active support, and frankly, I don’t see that happening here. I have one friend in particular who I could ask, but I wonder if the gatekeepers here would even publish it, and, if it’s the lone voice in a monolithic sea of the opposing view, would it actually make any difference?

        This is exactly the problem:

        “Taking a look at Enclave Publishing’s lineup, I don’t see a single non-Caucasian writer on the list.”

        Why? Why are no minorities there? Are there no minorities writing? Or has the white Evangelical SF publishing world created such a toxic environment that they all go elsewhere.

        Up until it was sold to Steve Laube, Vox Day/Theodore Beale was one of their premier published writers.

        Guys. The Evangelical Christian SF community has a race problem. And it’s not “the other side’s” fault for talking about it. When someone says “this hurts,” maybe don’t immediately dismiss it, since it doesn’t hurt *you.*

        • Sounds like a cheap cop-out from someone not willing to take ownership of their own words. Along with bold claims not backed up by anything. Ask your writer friend to submit. If their article ISN’T accepted, tell them to put it in the comment section right here so we all can see proof of your claim that there’s racism here. You’re throwing around some big claims that, if untrue, are honestly very toxic.

          That’s assuming your writer friend is a Christian. (This is a community of Christians)

          Take ownership or stop moaning.

        • Jo Michelle says:

          Re: “I’d like to hear more thoughts and personal experiences”

          See, that’s the thing. I’m still learning about this myself. I’d much prefer to platform and promote people who have been talking about this forever, but no one was listening, because of the color of their skin.

          “Shouting into the ocean” was how one Christian writer/teacher (Vivian Mabuni) from a racial minority described the experience of trying to talk with her Christian brothers and sisters in Evangelical Christianity.

          Most talk about the exhaustion they feel about this topic. Many are now quietly leaving the Evangelical world to other Christian traditions. Lecrae was one “big name.”

          Others continue to stay and fight.

          Rasool Berry, who’ve I’ve linked to in the past is one of those. He’s a missionary with an established Evangelical para-church missionary organization.

          They’ve been speaking and writing about this for years and years. Their books and blogs are out there. But they’ve been shut out of the conversation by terms like “cultural Marxism” and “social gospel.” They’ve been told to shut up, listen, and agree that all the issues they face every day of their lives aren’t actually a thing, and racism died in the 60s.

          • I’m not telling them to shut up. I don’t see anyone else here doing that, either. “Shouting into the ocean”? I feel I’m shouting into the ocean when I talk about Christ, and how there’s ONE RACE (the human race). Welcome to life. Ask your friend to submit. What one “feels” or interprets in people’s behavior is different from what actually IS. I just co-wrote a screenplay with a guy named Julio. He lives in Puerto Rico. We wrote it for a Hispanic film company, and the story is based on a true story that happened in Colombia. In the marketplace, instead of finding suppression of this important story, we’ve found it even easier to sell (to white Christians in high-up positions at big film companies-like SONY). And guess what? The film doesn’t have a single white person in it. If I asked Julio to write an article about diversity, he’d probably scratch his head and say, “What’s the big deal?” In my day job, I work in a ministry with people from around the world. Japanese, Africans, South Americans, etc. and guess what? They love and respect each other and work together. They’re not racist. And neither are the white evangelicals partnering with them. The most racist people I meet are young liberals boxing the air in the name of “anti-racism.” The majority of everyone around them says, “Settle down, we’re not racist,” and they respond with, “YOU’RE TRYING TO SUPPRESS ME.” Racists are out there, I know, but good God Almighty I’ve never met one (in person) in my entire life. And I’ve gotten around. I’m as tired as you are of hearing Christians blast immigrants and fear refugees. But that’s not racism. That’s the result of political fear mongering.

            Part of the problem with talk about diversity is that it’s bred so much hatred. And that’s a serious systemic issue, especially now with people like Trump stirring up right-wing psychopaths with hateful rhetoric. But I don’t believe any good change will come from hateful words or throwing around threats or insinuations in response.

            I don’t have any desire to suppress the truth that people have been slighted for their skin color. I don’t know any Caucasian who honestly does. But I, for one, am sick of people implying that I’m racist, or that I’m disqualified from speaking on the topic of racism because of my skin color.

        • Travis Perry says:

          Jo, at Bear Publications I’ve published 30 authors, mostly in short story anthologies. 16 are women, 14 are men. 29 are white, 1 is black.

          25 are from the United States, 2 are from Canada, 1 from the UK, 1 from Australia, and 1 from the Bahamas.

          All 30 are native English speakers. All 30 are professing Christians, but not all are Evangelical Christians. Several, including Kristin Stieffel, are open feminists.

          I’m actively seeking ways to be published in other countries and other languages. I have a copy of a book translated into Portuguese that needs an edit and another in French and another in Spanish. I’ve had a single short story (by Kerry Nietz) translated into Arabic, where it should soon be published in an Iraqi journal. I’m interested in engaging authors from Latin America and Africa and elsewhere in the world, including in Iraq and Afghanistan. But I’m finding it to be a slow process.

          I’m willing to support minority authors but I don’t have many submit stories to me–in fact, I’m quite sure don’t see the submission volume that Enclave does. But that’s OK, I’m working on it.

          Please note though that most of my readers are also from the United States and most of them are also white evangelical Christians. How exactly am I supposed to support minority writers more than I already am?

          If you have specific suggestions, I’m listening. Very seriously.

          • Jo Michelle says:

            That’s awesome that you’re platforming writers from other countries! But, they *are* the majority in their countries, unless you’re talking about a writer from a marginalized tribal group within their own country.

            What I’m talking about here is specifically America’s problem with a racial disparity in American Christian speculative publishing and voices.

            And as John Weaver points out bellow, as well as in the article Mike Duran linked to, this is a complicated issue.

            But, you can start by asking minority writers to contribute to *this* conversation. Who would be the best person to talk about a problem? Probably someone who’s actually *experienced* the problem.

            If there’s a *possibility* that life as a person of color in our country is more difficult than it would be for a “white” person, then you and I are not the most qualified to discount that possibility. Maybe we should ask several people of color what their experiences have been. *That’s* what I’m objecting to here:

            The total lack of input from those who are most affected by this conversation.

            But then you have to do more than listen. You have to be willing to make structural changes from the leadership down. You have to be willing to give those minority voices actual authority to make stuff happen. Otherwise, you’ll never see any growth of American minorities submitting manuscripts to you.

            • Travis Perry says:

              Jo, I find it frustrating that you can’t see that different nations have different perspectives and that different languages also bring true diversity of thought. It seems that what I’ve tried to say about real diversity being diversity of experience and belief has fallen on deaf ears in your case. (Though please note I have not come out against diversity as you understand it–I just don’t think it’s more than a basic measure.)

              It seems to me that you have a simple doctrinaire answer to these questions and no other data that contradicts what you already think can be discussed or thought about. Again, so you seem to me–perhaps it isn’t really the case.

              Speaking of simple doctrinaire answers, here’s one you implied: “If there’s a *possibility* that life as a person of color in our country is more difficult than it would be for a “white” person” etc.

              Yes, Jo, there’s more than a possibility that numerous persons of color have more difficulty than probably the majority of white people. But it clearly is not true that ALL do. To use an extreme case, Tiger Woods’ kids are almost certainly not going through a childhood of intense suffering. Chances are they never will–yes, it could be that someday someone will use a racial slur against them, but really, they’ll still be rolling in the millions and have every opportunity to go to the best schools, live in the best neighborhoods, and essentially do whatever they wish to do. That’s how the real world really works–class and familial advantage easily trump race. Even in the still-too-racist USA.

              The reasons people struggle to get ahead have complex reasons–racism is there in the mix, but it’s a low factor. If it were an all-powerful determinant, the USA would be very different from how it actually IS. One only has to be observant and thoughtful to realize that (please refer to my comments on Tiger Woods–and my comments about myself).

              As for your suggestions, I will see if I can get a different voice to comment on this topic, simply because you’ve asked for it. As for structural changes “from the leadership down” for Bear Publications, look, of the eight people who have worked for Bear Publications in any capacity (five of whom are translators), seven are women, two are handicapped, two are Mexican citizens (including my wife) and two are from Brazil (four Latinas)! Unless you want me to fire myself, I don’t see how I need major restructuring. Not of personnel anyway.

              By the way, I hope I don’t insult you by saying this, but it’s not readily evident from your photo that you are not white. You could easily be Italian, or with your last name, French, with no known (or no recent) non-white ancestors. If you wish to suggest that you have been a victim of discrimination based on your appearance alone, then it would stand to reason that many darker-skinned “white” people are also subject to the same discrimination. But that’s not what you have said–all minorities are the same from the way you talk in that all are relatively disadvantaged versus all white people. Maybe that’s not how you actually think, but it does seem to be. Sigh.

              • Jo Michelle says:

                I’m confused where you think I said I *wasn’t* white… 0_o

                I said:
                “If there’s a *possibility* that life as a person of color in our country is more difficult than it would be for a ‘white’ person, –> then you and I are not the most qualified to discount that possibility.”

                I’m very white. I’ve never claimed anything else. I’ve never been a victim of racial discrimination.

                But my POC brothers and sisters in Christ *have* been and *are.* And it’s time their white brothers and sisters started standing up for them, and supporting their voices.

            • ‘Minority’ can be relative, though. Japanese people are definitely the majority in Japan, but in the US, they are a minority.

            • Sasch says:

              That’s awesome that you’re platforming writers from other countries! But, they *are* the majority in their countries, unless you’re talking about a writer from a marginalized tribal group within their own country.

              Jo Michelle,
              I realize that this statement was not your main point, and I think I understand where you’re coming from, but I think there is a lot more to it. I would like to take myself as an example, even though you said you’re main problem is with racial disparity in the US.
              My ancestors have lived in Russia / USSR for a couple of centuries even though we are ethnically German. Towards the end of that time we were very marginalized, considered “German fascists” and persecuted for our faith.
              About 30 years ago we moved “home” to Germany, where now we are seen as the Russians, after all, we have significantly adapted to Russian culture during our time there. In Germany many of us lived in our little enclaves, distinct from other Germans because of our unique background and church culture. Granted, we are not marginalized in the same way as in Russia (we have the same opportunities for jobs, education etc as others) and yet I feel that on some level we are looked down upon as we interact with people in everyday life. (I expect that to change within a generation or so, as we are adapting back to German culture and will be less distinct)
              Now I live in SE Asia and am being treated like a semi-celebrity simply because I’m white. Especially when our whole family with 4 kids are out in public. Strangers (adults and kids) call out, point with fingers and draw attention to the white guy. People pretend to take selfies with us in the background and the like.
              Based on your statement above: Would I be a minority in Russia, on account of being a persecuted Christian from a different ethnicity? Or not, on account of me being white? Would I be a minority in Germany on account of having a distinct culture? Or not, on account of being of the same ethnicity and not being overly marginalized? Am I a minority in SE Asia on account of my different ethnicity and skin color? Or not, because I “enjoy” semi-celebrity status? (Which has it’s downsides, too. If I’m involved in an accident caused by somebody else, I get to pay for my own damage and the other guy’s, too, after all I’m the rich white guy who can afford it.)
              Personally I have felt like a minority my whole life, but I doubt that if I were to write a book and get published in the US, that I would boost anybody’s diversity statistics, because I get reduced to being a white male.
              That’s why I find it a little unfair that you dismiss Travis’s platforming people from other countries. Seems like a step in the right direction in my eyes.
              I find what makes this discussion a little difficult to navigate is that diversity is way too broad a term and people talk about different aspects of it and seemingly disagree.
              First of all we need to separate racial diversity from sexual diversity, which people rightfully oppose. There is different aspects to racial diversity, too. People with equal skill should have equal opportunities, regardless of their skin color. All races should be portrayed fairly in stories, regardless of the skin color of the author. I would assume that most if not all people here agree with that, which means we have a lot more in common than the various posts might imply.
              And then there is of course diversity of how we view the world and write stories about it, which can be diverse no matter whether one particular publisher publishes people that have all the same gender, skin color, ethnicity, political leanings or whether they belong to a particular majority in their respective countries (whatever it may be based on), or not.

      • I think it’s also worth noting that the conversation is getting framed partly in terms of SpecFaith having only ‘white men’ contributing articles, while ignoring the fact that, at the very least, it has women voices as well. Maybe they aren’t writing here on this topic, but SpecFaith isn’t only a place for white men. Racial minorities may be lacking, though as we’ve established, it’s hard to judge that based on skin tone alone(I used to have a pretty good tan in my early teens because I used to do cross country running a lot. But now I’m paler than even some white guys I know because I stay mostly indoors at present. I’m the same person either way. Do I need to go out in the sun and bake for a few days before my voice matters?). There is room for improvement on SpecFaith as far as diversity goes, but people don’t exactly always acknowledge what diversity is there.

        I wouldn’t mind submitting an article at some point, and have actually thought about doing so eventually(I kind of haven’t been submitting guest posts to very many places because I haven’t published anything yet. I have a lot of experience with writing, and I share my thoughts on that in comments, but if I posted an actual article on a place like SpecFaith without any actual stories to show people, I’d worry that people would wonder if I really have any authority on the matter. That might become irrelevant in a month or two, though, since although I won’t have a book published yet, I might start posting pages of a webcomic or two)

        I feel like SpecFaith is in a bit of a cruddy trap now. On one hand, they’d like to have more minority voices, and the audience wants it, too. But doing so on purpose would look like affirmative action, or like charity. Yet, if they don’t, it looks like they’re trying to exclude people. And, in a way, that whole issue kind of messes with the ability of minority writers to enter places like this. Once I was ready, I might have asked if I could submit an article, and SpecFaith would have posted it if it met their criteria/were looking for guest posts. I doubt I’d be asked for my race before saying yes, so eventually a minority voice could have probably entered the scene without being forced. But now that’s all kind of called into question. I’m glad we’re having this conversation, but this situation does kind of show that affirmative action can be a problem sometimes.

        How people give voice to a group matters a lot, though. I wouldn’t want someone to post one of my articles simply for the sake of diversity or because that’s the only way for people to prove they aren’t racist. But, if someone wants to do a blog series that, say, gives tips on writing girl chars better, or tips on writing guy chars better, that’d be a good time to consider which female writers/bloggers stand out as talented and then invite them to share their ideas on writing good female chars.

        I wouldn’t say that no men can write about that topic, or that girls can’t share their experiences when it comes to writing guy chars, because they might have valuable insights as well(I know what it’s like to be a girl that writes guy chars, for instance, so I can share some things that make the process easier for me. And the same goes for guys that try to write girl chars.)

        In general, the way people share their experiences matters, too. Accusing someone based on their gender and race often just makes people defensive, because deep down they are basically being told that there are people that hate and resent them based on things they can’t control(race and gender), no matter how good they try to be. But, simply describing experiences, doing what what we can to get rid of any hatred deep down in our minds, showing people that we aren’t hateful and just want to make things better, goes a long way. Not everyone will respond to that, but many people will, or at least be less resistant. At the very least, we will be giving out more concrete info than ‘white guys are the worst!’

      • I wouldn’t say Christians are minority writers. Christian SFF writers might be in the minority. But there is a pretty massive Christian writing community. And within that community, unfortunately, there is room for marginalization and racism, and that should be acknowledged.

    • Travis Perry says:

      Have you ever been in a group where significant bodily harm is a normal part of childhood? Were you ever in a group where finances meant your teeth would not be straightened as a kid? Or did you wear braces and have your wisdom teeth pulled? Did you have your eyes checked regularly, to ensure you would get glasses if you needed them? Did your family ever collect welfare or food stamps? Did you ever eat the same (not very nutritious) meal for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, because that’s all you had? Have you had lives of close relatives ruined by a substance abuse you feel lucky to have escaped yourself?

      I don’t know you–I can’t be sure what your life was like based on the color of your skin (or your gender). But generally most Americans, no matter their race, get glasses, have their wisdom teeth pulled, wear braces, and eat a variety of meals (though not necessarily nutritious ones). Only a minority of Americans, no matter their ethnic background, collect welfare or have substantial substance abuse in the family. And it is certainly quite rare in the modern United States for children to labor in conditions where are their lives are at risk.

      But many of the things I described are common experiences in poorer nations. In fact good dental care, vision care, and general bodily safety for children are the exception rather than the rule in Afghanistan and much of Africa.

      I felt I understood Afghans and Africans at times better than many of my fellow Americans did, because my hard childhood was like theirs. As I already noted in my post, in certain personal and significant ways my life has been more like that of an Ethiopian military officer I once worked with than any particular American of any race.

      Do you really believe nothing I have to say about diversity can possibly be of interest to you because I’m a so-called “white” male? Do individuals not matter to you at all?

      Have you ever spent any significant time outside of the United States? Do you speak any foreign languages? If not, why is your perspective inherently better than mine?

      Note, I’m willing to accept your perspective may indeed be broader and deeper than mine. I certainly don’t know from the inside what it’s like to be a woman, that’s for certain. But I do believe that family, class, and culture matter more than being a “minority.”

      It’s ironic perhaps that I am addressing you as a person who I want to engage in meaningful conversation on this topic. Yet the only thing you had to say about my post was essentially that a white man made it. You seem to be altogether ignoring me, who I am as an individual, because of my race and gender.

      Do you feel justified in thinking all white men are the same? Why?

    • Hi, Jo. I don’t know if you read my article or not, but I’m black, although I didn’t discuss my own race in the article. I’ve been reading Speculative Faith for years.

      I haven’t seen many (or any) authors of color on here, but that’s never bothered me. When I first came to this site, I was just happy that there were other Christian writers and readers that loved SFF as much as I did.

      To be fair, I am not easily “triggered” on race issues. Much less so than other blacks (and now some “woke” whites) apparently are.

      I like the fact that people who read my article (or my books) can consider it on its own merits without thinking, ‘Oh, a black guy writing about diversity. He must be right.’

  2. John Weaver says:

    I think Jo Michelle is right about the general problems in Christian speculative fiction though I don’t think Travis Perry is part of the problem (the whole aspect about Travis’s race and Mike’s is a bit of a red herring. It falls under a classic logical fallacy called the genetic fallacy that says an argument should be considered less legitimate because of the racial, religious, sexual group someone hails from. Which ironically, is the major logical fallacy used to justify racism).

    That being said, Jo Michelle has many good points. I think in particular the prominence of Vox in the Christian spec faith industry has been problematic and has troubled me, as has some of the ideas about Jews present in Kathy Tyers’s work (a much lesser problem than Vox to be sure and probably not intentional on Kathy’s part). My point here is not even to attack Vox, but merely to note that his presence and prominence in the industry may be turning off other voices from the industry.

    I think there has been some progress in the industry, particularly in Steve Rzasa’s works, which do promote more diversity than was common when I first read the genre. But I think Jo is right to note that the genre is still essentially seen as a white, or white male, genre. To my knowledge, I know of only one POC who has written for Enclave.

    I would note, however, that racial justice untied to economic justice really does nothing, as those two trends are intrinsically interlinked. And until that conversation is held, which I have some doubts on, I doubt any changes in inclusivity or representation are going to have any more than surface-level effects.

    • Do you think the fact that the vast majority of Christian spec writers are Caucasian is caused by current racism, or because of other issues? (Example 1: perhaps American youth [ethnically from India] don’t read Christian speculative fiction because they don’t relate to the characters or struggles as much as they’d like, and so they don’t become readers/writers of it. Example 2: Publishers want to publish what they know they can sell, and they don’t see an active “racial minority” readership that they can easily sell to, so they don’t take as many books by minority writers with niche topics that would appeal to minority “races”)

    • Jo Michelle says:

      “I would note, however, that racial justice untied to economic justice really does nothing, as those two trends are intrinsically interlinked. And until that conversation is held, which I have some doubts on, I doubt any changes in inclusivity or representation are going to have any more than surface-level effects.”

      That’s a fair point.

      But listening to marginalized voices *can* be a first step toward addressing the systemic issues they face. Until you know there is a problem, you can’t work to fix it.

  3. Mike Duran says:

    Responding to Jo and John — I’m linking a post from several years back in which I dug into the question of race and evangelical publishers. In it, I interviewed several industry reps, both agents and editors. While all agree that diversity is needed (both in content and actual authorship), the move to be more inclusive has not been easy. Interestingly enough, several publishers have actually tried lines aimed at people of color, which have failed. Also, the actual percentage of poc writing and reading Christian fiction is really small. Point being there’s a lot more to the issue.

    http://www.mikeduran.com/2015/08/17/does-christian-fiction-have-a-race-problem/

  4. notleia says:

    Yeah, race IS a social construct that was invented expressly as a basis for discrimination. But just because it’s a social construct doesn’t mean that it isn’t A Thing. It has a crapload of historic baggage dragging behind it that isn’t just gonna magically disappear, and because the current discrimination is real, and the douchebags like Dylan Roof who want to start a race war are real, and it’s real that white cops can get off scot-free for shooting unarmed black people in the back.

    • notleia says:

      Addendum: One thing we’ve missed here is the concept of unconscious biases. I mean, we all like to think we’re not racist because we’re not going out and punching dark-skinned people, but we all have our blind spots in perception. Even you. Even me (I’m trying to get better).

      We’re mostly talking race now, but I’ve seen a study where men are hecken terrible at judging how equal things are. Like, if a group is mathematically 50-50 men and women, they would say that was a female majority. And groups men thought were equal were actually only 30%-ish female.

      Or college students after a class were asked to report the stats on who talked how much, and while the women students were relatively accurate, the men perceived women as talking more than they actually did.

  5. Good post 🙂 I haven’t been out of the country yet, but a lot of things you said fit with what I’ve seen and experienced. Like, place and community does make a huge difference. Obviously there’s going to be some racism everywhere, but where I’m from, I see a lot less of it than what people talk about in other areas of the country. Upbringing and family also matters a lot, too. If someone’s parents are reasonably stable, teach their children well, encourage them to get good grades, etc. then that person will be far better off than someone whose parents are abusive and/or addicted to drugs.

    Interestingly enough, my parents have a lot of shared life experiences as well(difficult childhoods, lost parents, having their appendix removed, etc). And yeah, race didn’t shield either of them from those realities. But one thing that’s made a difference for them and for me has been the fact that they’ve worked so hard to improve their lives. There’ve been times when I’ve been very angry with them and had a hard time getting along, and I’ve had a lot of difficulties of my own, but in general I’d say my childhood was a lot more stable than theirs. We don’t have a lot of money, but they always did things to give me the best chance at life, such as pushing me to do well academically and putting me in extracurricular activities that were good for me. That’s a big contrast to people on both sides of my family that have made poor choices or had terrible upbringings.

  6. John Weaver says:

    Jo Michelle,
    I understand your point, but what I tend to see is that people often talk about race so that they don’t have to talk about class and race together. Talking about race by itself or class by itself is to my mind pointless. Perhaps on individual issues like this it may help, but as a general rule, one of the major problems with the “identity” wing of the left right now is that it has no coherent economic critique of the social problems our world faces, and often seems reluctant to address them (one suspects because much of the identity wing is actually fairly well off economically). The Sanderites meanwhile, do the same thing, thinking class should be the only thing we talk about (one suspects because the Sanderites are not doing so bad economically themselves). Both issues should go together. What I see with strategies like yours – not from you, but from other people – is just a tactic for dividing black working class people from white working class people like me. Which is neither a new idea nor racially progressive at all.
    To Mike’s point, yes those problems obviously are real problems in the genre. But they were produced by the fact that Christian speculative fiction has had heavily racially charged narratives of African-American culture from the start. If I was an African-American, I would not trust a genre that has produced Vox Day or novels like Gideon’s Torch. White evangelicals seem to only notice African-Americans when they need to weaponize them for some policy objective. And frankly, without meaning to be disrespectful to Jefferson Scott\Jeff Gerke, I think writers may have been put off by the general right-wing trend of much of his 90’s and 00’s writing\activism (particularly the Y2K fearmongering). Jefferson’s work falls rather comfortably in the “New Economy” neoliberalism of the right during that era. And I think that Jo is right to see this as an institutional problem in the genre. The point where I disagree with Jo is simply that I see it less as a problem created by persons (whether Travis, you or someone else) and more as a systemic issue that needs systemic, not piecemeil reform. And I do think the genre needs to ask real questions about promoting people like Vox. I’m not saying even don’t publish him. His work should be judged on its quality, not other factors. But I’m frankly dubious that Vox’s stuff would pass that test. What little I’ve read certainly has some innovative plot ideas, but hardly is characterized by great writing. I think his fellow writer (and sometimes co-writer) Steve Rzasa is much the better writer, and much more to be commended on his racial politics. With people like Rachelle Dekker, Morgan Busee, and Steve Rzasa in the industry now, I just don’t even think the industry needs Vox anymore. Aside from John C. Wright and old Pournelle works, I don’t really see much of quality coming out of Castalia.
    And I think that all these discussions point to a deeper problem, which is the lack of viewpoint diversity within Christian speculative fiction. Here I am frankly distrustful of both the industry’s approach and Jo Michelle’s, because to me they are just different forms of Puritanism, which is essentially what both the Christian Right and Identity Politics tend to descend into. And frankly, I suspect the Alt-Right and Sanderites will get there almost as quickly. They produce terrible, didactic fiction, on BOTH sides of the cultural divide. Whether it’s Socialist Realism, Identity fiction, didactic Christian sci-fi, or what passes for fiction on the alt-right, they all basically succumb to the preaching urge, and it’s just very boring to read. Frankly, that’s why I increasingly just read Japanese fiction – Mishima, Abe, Oe, etc – or the French Decadents. I’ve read many positive and uplifting books from the Socialist Realist, Identity, and didactic Christian schools. But I have not read many good ones and I doubt I will. And people can say that results from prejudice. I do not really care. But no one really wants to listen to hymns to tractors. As I mentioned to one of my friends recently: “The problem with Christian speculative fiction is that it thinks the artwork should preach a message. It never aims for a far better goal. That the artwork BE the message.” And the same could be said about Identity works, Socialist Realism, and all the other schools of Artistic Puritanism.

  7. John Weaver says:

    Folks, I’m going to sign off from discussion. Nothing bad, I just try to keep a low profile on social media. If anyone wants to contact me, though, feel free. I just want to say, in conclusion, that I think Jo does raise valid points, whatever my disagreements with her. My apologies to Jo and to Mike if I communicated my position too vehemently. I just am generally scared of anything that reminds me too much of the Puritanism of my youth, and right now, every side in our culture reminds me of that. God bless you all.

  8. Travis, thanks for writing this article. I agree with you on most points. But I don’t agree with your sentiment that race is a false idea. I suppose it depends on how you define “race.” As part of the whole diversity salad (inclusive of ideas and experiences) that you espouse, I think race (the color of one’s skin, unique facial features, etc.) is an element of it. That can’t be denied.

    However, like you say, even within “races,” there are differences and even discrimination. I’ve heard tale of some black people criticized for “acting too white” or “not being black enough.” And, within the black community, we know there is a difference between the mentality and outlook on life between a black person whose ancestors were slaves in the U.S., a black American who comes from Africa whose ancestors were never slaves, and a black person born and raised in England. (My dad even claims there is a difference in mentality between blacks in Texas and blacks in the rest of the South.)

    Samuel L. Jackson got in trouble for pointing this out, in regards to actor British Daniel Kaluuya, not too long ago. That upset some people in the liberal progressive crowd who like to lump all black people into a monolith, but Jackson was only expressing what blacks in America already acknowledge. Everybody of the same race, even all black people, aren’t the same.

    • Travis Perry says:

      Daniel, in my understanding of the history of the world, there was ethnocentricism from the beginning. That is, “I prefer my people over all other people in the world.” But people have defined “my people” in various ways. By native language (still a thing in the USA with Hispanics), by religion you are born into (still true with Jewish and Hindu people), by tribe (real or imagined descent from a common ancestor, very big in Afghanistan), or by other cultural traits.

      Greeks and Romans engaged in some racial theories that were quite different from our own (they saw people from the Mediterranean–i.e. themselves–as one race and everybody else as different, i.e. “barbarians”), so it wasn’t until the Europeans launched their Age of Exploration than you began to have people start to theorize that all people from sub-Saharan Africa are the same, everyone from Europe is the same, and everyone from Asia is the same (and eventually they made a category for Native Americans). These theories went through many different versions, but Europeans usually refused to acknowledge that the people they hated in Europe really were the same race as them–in the United States specifically it was at first Irish people, then Southern Europeans, then Eastern Europeans, and also Jewish people, that many people in the mainstream of US society refused to acknowledge as being the same as so-called “white” Americans.

      In wasn’t even until the 1800s that anyone serious theorized that races exist in the absolute terms we know them as today and that they define who human beings are. Note slavery limited to black people existed BEFORE racial theories defending it. Which had to do with profit, first with the Portuguese funding their trips around Africa to get to Asian spices, and morphing into the ease of picking up West Africans in the well-known triangle trade.

      Race as a way of defining human beings is essentially meaningless in and of itself (there are in reality just so many differences between different groups of Africans, between different groups of Europeans, and between groups of Asians). It has come to have meaning in countries like the USA because of slavery and other race-based ways of exploiting people that were really primarily about greed and making money, which later got justified by racism.

      Race as we think of it in the US is imaginary–or putting what I said more scientifically, is a “social construct,” i.e. is only true because a bunch of people have agreed it’s true.

      So that’s what I mean by saying race is meaningless. It first of all focuses on outward appearance and second enforces itself by imagining everyone in a certain category is the same.

      But I do acknowledge it is important to be inclusive of people of other races, even though that category doesn’t really mean as much as people think it does. (I think other languages and other cultures is a much more important thing.)

      For a reference on how Greeks and Romans saw the world versus us, please refer to Frank M. Snowden’s Before Color Prejudice:
      https://www.amazon.com/Before-Color-Prejudice-Ancient-Blacks/dp/0674063813/

      For a reference on how slavery came first (and why), prior to racism, in Colonial South Carolina (though this is not the book’s main topic), see Peter H. Wood’s Black Majority:
      https://www.amazon.com/Black-Majority-Colonial-Carolina-Rebellion/dp/0393314820/

      To find a reference to the first major race theorist, who was a guy named Robert Knox writing in 1850 (“The Races of Men”), see the following reference from the British Library:
      https://www.bl.uk/collection-items/the-races-of-men-19th-century-racial-theory

What do you think?