1. “…books with Amish women on the covers who look forlorn, probably because someone forced them to wear eyeliner and blush to get their pictures taken for the covers…”

    I absolutely cracked up at this. (Not a fan of Amish/Mennonite womens fiction. XD)  

    On-topic, I actually sometimes can be a churchian dragon even though I regularly refuse to write for the crowd. I question whether I should read anything that isn’t inherently ‘useful’ because I have an underlying expectation that it’s stupid to read things that don’t preach at me. I question whether I’m really being benefited by intaking secular works (i.e. the science fiction shows I like) because even though I’m learning things about how I view the world by comparing to how other people view the world (you run into so many interesting worldviews in secular works which are kinda fun to contrast with your own) … is it right to do it? That kind of thing.

    So I’d say that a probably wrong practical notion that many Christians have is that the fiction needs to be beneficial in some way.

    I don’t think it’s always from a conversion-heavy background, though. I think it’s from the assumption that you need to be practical and useful in order to be worth anything. (which can affect not only stories but also people. It’s pretty painful, and I’m questioning whether or not that’s a good assumption) 

    And I usually just give up and go away when somebody’s being annoying. XD I don’t like causing fights and if somebody else doesn’t want to read/watch the stories I like, that’s their loss. XD  

  2. Galadriel says:

    Ditto on the Amish fiction.  Thanks for the tips.

  3. On-topic, I actually sometimes can be a churchian dragon even though I regularly refuse to write for the crowd.

    So do I. And I wonder where it comes from?

    My guess — our “default setting” that we just do, and use, everything we can to make ourselves better people. By default, even if we’ve believed the Gospel, we don’t apply it.

    I question whether I should read anything that isn’t inherently ‘useful’ because I have an underlying expectation that it’s stupid to read things that don’t preach at me.

    Same here. And yet, Scripture itself explicitly and implicitly proves that God is honored even in non-“preachy” ways, through vocation, beauty, and any truth (though of course no one is saved by exposure to any of those; if anything, we’re more liable — Romans 1!).

    So I’d say that a probably wrong practical notion that many Christians have is that the fiction needs to be beneficial in some way.

    I would suggest that all fiction should be of some practical benefit. But by default, we wrongly define “practical” and “benefit” as “bringing conversion” or “behavior-modifying” instead of God-glorifying. I wonder what else we define it as?

    My view is that we should be redefining it as Scripture defines the goal of the universe and everything in it: to glorify God.

    And thus we can reassure Churchian Dragons that fiction does give practical benefit — once we rightly understand what true benefit/practicality/pragmatism is, not based on personal opinion or sentiment, but based on Scripture.

    Also, we might not expect a Story to fulfill some practical goal its maker didn’t set out to fulfill. I don’t watch a Looney Tunes cartoon expecting great theology about God, or even a whole lot about how man should worship Him. However, I can find even there some truths about God’s creation and our nature now (especially our ridiculousness!). And the cartoon fulfilled its intention: to be zany and screwball, and make us laugh.

  4. Patrick says:

    I’m not sure if a drive for conversion is the source as far as books are concerned. It may have been once-upon-a-time, but today it just seems to be how they were taught and how it’s always been done. True critical pragmatic thought requires actual thinking. Energy and effort and time are needed. It’s not conversion of the lost they really care about (in their guardedness against fiction). They are caught in a worn trench of accepted normal. Easier to discard fiction in general than apply discernment. Most of those other areas where they seem to have a more healthy view of what is biblical can be engaged in passively, and less effort is needed in appropriate discernment. 

    We can hear music and the lyrics and figure out pretty quickly if it is glorifying to God or guiding the foolish down the path of destruction. It is so much easier to watch a PG movie you are not completely sure of with your kids- experiencing it together and knowing you can talk about it together afterwards- than to read a story out-loud with a child who feels that is babyish because they know how to read and can do it faster on their own; or to try to read many books you have no personal interest in because you know your child is interested and wants to read it. If you haven’t read it yourself you can’t be sure to know what they are taking in, even if they do talk with you about the books.

    So how does one know which authors to trust their children too? Cover art and synopsis? And there you have the Dragon’s dilemma. Easier to guard against the potential dangers in a story with magic, good witches, or whatever worldly agenda might be laced into it- than to make yourself read a book you are not really interested in and already biased against for the sake of your children… or accept another person’s evaluation of books. As far as many of these dragons concerned the treasure isn’t any material goods- it’s the minds of their children and even their own, that they are guarding against false teachings the only way they know how.

    Our life schedules are so full these days. Reading is not the primary source of most people’s entertainment because it takes time and effort to get through a book. How much more effort to think about what you are reading while you are reading it? Especially if you never developed a love for reading when you were young, or if you’ve never learned how to discern what is good without setting your barriers out ridiculously far to insure safety.

  5. Patrick says:

    I agree with all your points on writing for Christians by-the-way. Not arguing against any of that. I’m just questioning if we understand why the problem seems to be with fiction books as opposed to other media, and if these very good suggestions adequately satisfy the dragons to let the treasures I’m offering through. If it’s really not about whether fiction is seen as beneficial, but more about how do I monitor and discern the content of fiction without actually reading it? – then are there other things we can do to help the dragons out? like maybe develop a rating system endorsed by trusted authorities? Put a gold foil sticker of approval on anything that passes the biblical criteria?

    • Kessie says:

      For myself, the best way I’ve found to filter books is by reading reviews of them on Amazon, both the good and the bad ones. But I imagine that option’s not available for everyone.

      • Patrick says:

        Negative reviews tend to upset me, as they often seem to be written in a very arrogant dismissive or insulting tone. Their harsh words stick with me some time whether I decide to read the book or not. And if I do- and like it as much as I tend to do with books I’ve taken the time to pick out- those negative words come back to haunt me… but now it’s personal, because they’ve also insulted anyone who could enjoy such writing and now that includes me. Just give me the facts please and thank-you. Is there such a thing? Or is it all too hopelessly subjective?

        I so wish there was a Pandora (the on-line radio, not the box or the jewelry) style system for books. That it would take hundreds of factual qualities about stories, and then you could search for books by inputting a story or author you already know you like, and it would generate a suggestion list.

        I know Amazon sort-of but not really tries to do this- but there it’s based on what people purchase together- not on actual qualities of the books themselves. Goodreads is now claiming to do this based on how members have rated the books they’ve read and how that compares to what you have read… sounds like a better system than Amazon but I haven’t tried it yet (just found out about it today)- maybe someday someone will try my idea, but I am aware it would be insanely time consuming to create such a database as I’ve suggested.

  6. Kessie says:

    I think Patrick makes a good point, about parents having major filters in place to protect their kids, or they are “caught in a worn trench of accepted normal”. 
     
    Which, of course, means they’ll keep reading rehashes of the same historical romance novels and ignoring the edgier stuff, like Dekker and Brouwer.
     
    But as someone pointed out (I can’t remember who, sorry) pointed out that homeschooler kids are both reading and writing fantasy and science fiction, and a whole crop of them are reaching adult age. I’m one, myself. We want more, and it’s hard to find in Christian markets.
     
    Or it’s written by Gilbert Morris. /needlessvenom
     
    So I think that all the adult spec fic authors should keep on cranking out books and honing their craft, because there’s a bunch of young adults out there who are looking for something good. And as dragons go, they’re small, hot, hungry ones who will try all kinds of things, looking for treasure. At least, I know I am.
     
    Now I’ll keep reading this book Aberat by Clive Barker. 😀

  7. Especially if you never developed a love for reading when you were young, or if you’ve never learned how to discern what is good without setting your barriers out ridiculously far to insure safety. (Emphasis added)

    Patrick, I think that’s the key. At root of people’s fiction confusion are nonfiction beliefs. Some of them are, quite frankly, not well thought-out. They expect particular nonfiction results that fiction (good fiction, anyway) isn’t designed — or should not be — designed to give. It’s frankly a problem of wrong hermeneutics in-context — reading comprehension.

    I agree with all your points on writing for Christians by-the-way. Not arguing against any of that. I’m just questioning if we understand why the problem seems to be with fiction books as opposed to other media, and if these very good suggestions adequately satisfy the dragons to let the treasures I’m offering through.

    Hmm — I’m still not sure this sort of well-meaning parents will think of a movie as being that much different from a book. For many parents, the goals are (questionably) pragmatic: keep the kids occupied and convey Values at the same time, or at least convey as few negative “values” as possible. The chief end of all Things, helping us to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, has been substituted for temporary, unhelpful goals.

    My wife’s parents would often read books before their kids did. Mind you, these were often secular works, and in the days before widespread internet usage, so before we could get information about books and especially niche offerings like Christian books. Yet as the kids grew older, the parents gradually switched to letting the kids practice discernment on their own. They took the training wheels off and let ’em roll. Sure, they may fall down a few times, and at first the parents should wait nearby … but it’s teaching children to grow into their own Biblical discernment and maturity.

    However, this counts if the parents mostly enjoy fiction or have the time to read books. What if they don’t?

    If it’s really not about whether fiction is seen as beneficial, but more about how do I monitor and discern the content of fiction without actually reading it? – then are there other things we can do to help the dragons out?

    This is what Speculative Faith (and in particular the still-in-development Library) is meant to do, and which I’ve seen offered from many other authors and sites.

    However, I think we could use more of it, and this in particular appeals to me:

    like maybe develop a rating system endorsed by trusted authorities? Put a gold foil sticker of approval on anything that passes the biblical criteria?

    If I could make a ranking system for novels, for adults and children, it could be like this:

    1. What does it say about God, the Epic Story’s main Character, and the Gospel the Epic Story’s plot?
    2. What does it say about who we are, versus who we should be and how we worship God?
    3. What does it say about God’s world, and how does it treat His gifts to us — is it excellent?

    Finally, from Kessie:

    Or it’s written by Gilbert Morris. /needlessvenom

    That made me nearly cough on my Chex Mix.

    • Patrick says:

      Stephen, you are very thorough in your responses to your responders. I appreciate that. Thank you.
      And as Esther is asking, I’d like to see what a rating by your system would look like too. Once the system is set, you can call up James Dobson and Billy Graham to endorse it. Thanks again!

  8. Esther says:

    Ahem. Who is Gilbert Morris?
    And now…
    Stephen: kindly evaluate any one or all of the first 4 Harry Potter books using your rubric above. (I’ve only read the first four, so cannot compare ratings on any past that.)
    I await your evaluation with high anticipation!

    • Kessie says:

      I don’t know if Gilbert Morris is still around, but ten or so years ago, he was writing Christian kids fiction. I picked up his 10+ book fantasy series and my brother picked up his 10+ book Civil War series.
       
      Book 1 was excellent. Book 2 almost as good. By book 10, it’s a mindless slog through pages of boring characters, flat, predictable plot. All the books had the same formula. They just had different settings and fantastic cover art. The first book was always awesome. And by the last book, you’re cursing your choice to spend $15 on each of the 10 books.

    • In other words, the Stratemeyer Syndicate, only without pen names and for Christians. 😀

      • Esther says:

        I must have been very sheltered…I don’t know who the Stratemeyer Syndicate is/was, either.

      • Wikipedia taught me. It was a fascinating read.

        So were The Hardy Boys, The Bobbsey Twins, Nancy Drew, and dozens of other series, most of them with pseudonyms representing other authors or even teams of ghostwriters. … All published by the Stratemeyer Syndicate.

        Best, scariest, most sinister name for a children’s book-publishing hive mind ever.

  9. Leam Hall says:

    I like being a dragon, it explains the caustic attitude and bad morning breath.
    On the other hand, I am easily depressed by world events and all the bad news of the day. When I read a novel I want to be encouraged to be deeper, more loving, and less ambivilant. If I wanted more depression I’d head back to reality and watch television. 
    Well, scratch that last bit, we got rid of our television some years ago and are happier. We’re selective about our books from a “worthwhile investment of time” perspective. While a good Christian author with a good book is preferable I’ll read Ludlum even though he can’t seem to keep his facts straight. Good pacing though. I doubt you really need a rating system that’s overly detailed. Sort your friends by genre-preference and when they find a book they really enjoy have them send out a note on it. Utilize social media, don’t spend too much time on books you wouldn’t suggest a friend read, and see what happens.
    As is there seem to be lots of Christians writing in many genres. However, as a neophyte writer I have no idea how to find them or how to find recommendations on them. If you can overcome that problem you will have made a big step forward for the entire community.
     
     
     

  10. Nikole Hahn says:

    I’m a recovering churchian dragon.I used to jump on the bandwagon with other Christians about books like Harry Potter, while I read Grimms Fairy Tales. Yes, I was also a hypocrite. Now I see how Christian speculative fiction holds much value. In fact, I write it because I have always loved fantasy. It’s always been in my love–this longing for another world.

  11. The last few comments bring to mind something I should have included more directly: that all of us, to some extent, struggle with Dragonish tendencies.

    All of us want some kind of practical benefit, usually self-defined, out of a story we enjoy.

    I might suggest that even some of the uber-strict sorts have gotten partway to the Biblical truth that nothing is neutral; all things must be done for God’s glory. There’s never a “just entertainment.” There is never a “just for fun.” It’s either black or white.

    Where they slip up, I think, is in assuming that only certain “spiritual” things glorify God. Scripture instead shows that even fallen creation and imaginations give Him glory.

    From Leam:

    On the other hand, I am easily depressed by world events and all the bad news of the day. When I read a novel I want to be encouraged to be deeper, more loving, and less ambivilant.

    I can definitely appreciate that! And yet I also find many times when I don’t feel that way. When I read a novel, or view a film, or even hear a great song or soundtrack, I want not to think about self-improvement, but to forget myself. I want to be lost — or at least, want to want to be lost. Lost in a Something Other, a transcendent experience, not for its own sake or the sake of some mystical goal, but for the sake of God Himself.

    Is that separate from becoming a deeper, more-loving, more-involved person? Not at all … because only through God Himself, and the righteousness of Christ, would I have any hope of getting to be that way. Enamored with Him, through His gifts — and not my impulse to be enamored with Him for His gifts — I “get” more of Him, and glorify Him.

    That all goes back to the principle that Piper popularizes in Desiring God, that “God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him.” To some extent, though, Piper hasn’t made a career out of carrying that over to all life areas, beyond devotional life and missions and church polity — which are all vital, to be sure! Maybe it’s up to those who have other gifts and interests to apply everywhere that truth behind the Gospel.

    If I wanted more depression I’d head back to reality and watch television. 
    Well, scratch that last bit, we got rid of our television some years ago and are happier.

    We haven’t had cable or satellite in a while and we’ve never missed it. We do, however, enjoy DVDs via the library, Netflix, Redbox, on our own time, without commercials. 😀

    From Nikole:

    It’s always been in my love–this longing for another world.

    And behind that is a longing for the New Earth, and behind that is the ultimate longing for God, for the wonder only He can give. Nonbelievers have this longing too, I’m sure, and we all misdirect it by often enjoying only the gifts, without the Giver, or else ignoring the feeling by believing it’s “worldly” or somehow separate from Christianity.

  12. I’d like to see what a rating by your system would look like too. Once the system is set, you can call up James Dobson and Billy Graham to endorse it. Thanks again!

    To quote kizs these days: LOL.

    Sure, I could call or text Jim or Billy, but they’re so occupied, you see; I prefer to save the casual chats for our monthly Saturday breakfasts. …

    As for the “ranking” concept, this is still a work in progress. Here’s a revised version.

    1. Protagonist and Plot. What does the story say about the Epic Story — God, the Story’s absolutely central Character, and the Gospel, the Story itself?
    2. Characters. What does it say about who we are, conflicted and sinful, versus who we should be, heroic, humble, loving, truthful, and in worship of God?
    3. Setting and Style. What does it say about God’s world — how it is now, marred by sin, and how it will be, redeemed and beautiful? And does it say this well, with excellence that honors the One Who gave us imagination and talents?

    Note that God and the Gospel come first, as in any good systematic theology. That’s the “nonfiction” part. And I do believe a great story will always incidentally echo a Gospel truth, though certainly not the whole thing (just as some separate Bible books, such as Job or Proverbs, don’t echo the whole Gospel, and Esther doesn’t even mention God).

    Second, characters. What do they show us about ourselves and our flaws that is true? And what do they show about how we should be? A great story will echo reality in both ways. This makes for great characters in a story. It will also implicitly encourage us to be humble and thank God for His redeeming us to make us more like Himself. However, a more-specific Christian story will likely explicitly motivate us to worship God.

    As for setting and style — that will cover both the story’s “world” and writing quality. How the story shows the world can reflect reality, as it is, and how it should/will be. And the writing quality will implicitly honor the God of creativity and excellence.

    Perhaps each one of these could have a four-star ranking, further broken down. …

    And I think I’ll save those ideas for next week.

    That column could also include an application or two of the concept — which, by the way, is originally from a book outline, in progress. For now, I’m mulling it over, and would love to hear further thoughts. At present it seems to cover both the truth-discernment and beauty-enjoying sides of reading a novel, whether it’s “Christian” or not. And it specifically ties elements of God’s Epic Story to any other story we create.

    But here’s one short application, about Harry Potter, thanks to Esther‘s question. However, I am treating the series as one story, for the purpose of these thoughts.

    1. Protagonist and Plot.

    God isn’t in Harry Potter. I’m content to see the Epic Story’s Protagonist ignored, just so He is not slandered. But echoes of the Plot are certainly there, as they are in any good story: good versus evil, strength through suffering, sacrificial deaths, and many more.

    2. Characters.

    Though Christians and even others like to critique HP for including deceptive and flawed characters, I see little reason for it — this shows how people are, which a great story must do before showing who they should be. If Harry and the others finished the entire story arc without changing, I’d have issues, and so would the story itself, which would be shown to be stale and unrealistic. But they have changed by the end. Even Harry has learned, implicitly, to trust in those who love him and even obey them.

    As for encouraging worship of God, though, as He is not a Player in the story, this is a bit more vague. For me, my worship is encouraged more because of the author’s …

    3. Setting and Style.

    The entire magical world awakens that longing others have referenced here — for another world, not just one of magic and mystery, but of family, friends, and noble warriors who either have already fought for goodness, or are actively doing so.

    That points to the New Earth. Like a time distortion in the future, whose effects ripple back into the past. And that implicitly points to God.

    So does the author’s craft, which, though flawed in some ways, implicitly honors the God Who is praised even by fallen, nonhuman nature, and Who gives even evil people the ability to give good gifts to their children and create things with excellence.

    … There’s the skeletal structure of thoughts that may be fleshed out soon. For those who want star or number rankings, I may do those. Too “practical”? Sure, but it helps. And I think those of us who know Churchian Dragons — and who have often been Dragonish ourselves, and even now feel a bit Dragonish at times! — certainly could use the help.

What do you think?