1. Galadriel says:

    Some scenes–no matter how many times I witness them–still make me feel horrible and empty. Aslan’s death is one of those–strangely, moreso in the Radio Theatre version than the film.  And the silence and the emptiness afterwards…it loses something in the film by cutting away to the battle.

  2. Bainespal says:

    The Witch says: “[Aslan] may not stay long. And then—we would fall upon the three [children] at Cair.” (page 135) After we’ve read of the Witch’s terror at Aslan’s arrival, do you think she truly believes Aslan will simply leave Narnia back in her hands?

    So, presumably the Witch has changed her mind about killing Edmund because her situation is so desperate, but she refuses to admit her desperation to herself? She must have known that Aslan would avenge the murder of the children of prophecy, otherwise she would have killed Edmund when she first saw him.

    What ideas do you get about the Stone Table and its history and purpose? How is this way of discussing it better than saying something like, Now you see, the Stone Table had long ago been used for sacrifices, or whatever purpose you think it had in the past?

    The suggestion of the Stone Table’s ancient use is terrifying and tantalizing. This is clearly no place for telling. However, I don’t think enough information is given here to come to a full conclusion. People were killed on the Stone Table once, and I’m pretty sure that the executions could not have been sacrifices to the Emperor.  The witch implies that the engravings on the Table state the Emperor’s Magic, that all traitors belong to her.  So, maybe it represents the Law that condemns sinners.

    Mr. Beaver refers to the Witch as the “Emperor’s hangman” (page 142). Is this accurate? What about in our world — does God have a “hangman” or does He punish sin Himself?

    I’m sure the idea of God having a “hangman” is bad theology, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the Witch could not have once been the Emperor’s executioner in the fictional world. It seems doubtful from what we know of the Witch. Like the reference to Lilith (which I think has a greater chance of being “true” in the context of Narnia), Mr. Beaver isn’t exactly a reliable source of Narnian lore.

    In our world, Who requires the shedding of blood as payment for sin? Now consider the Witch’s words, which Aslan does not deny: “… That human creature is mine. His life is forfeit to me. His blood is my property.”

    I agree. It would have been more theologically correct, and potentially even more interesting as fiction, if the Witch had said something like “You have a traitor in your midst. You know that the Deep Magic demands that you spill his blood, or all Narnia will perish!”
    But that would introduce plot problems. How would the Witch be present to preside over Aslan’s execution? Maybe this could work if it really were true that the Witch was the Emperor’s hangman, the executioner of the unrighteous. This would trade one theological error for another, but I think it might have been more interesting.

    “Work against the Emperor’s Magic?” said Aslan … (page 142). Is Aslan “limited” by this Deep Magic? Even if he is not, how does this all-powerful Lion come across in this?

    But magic seems to represent God’s will. Remember the part where the children are brought into the wardrobe by “magic.” The Deep Magic seems analogous to God’s Law. So, the suggestion of Aslan working against the Deep Magic is like suggesting that God should just let sinners go without the shedding of anyone’s blood.

    How does this strike you, when compared with Christ’s response to his forthcoming suffering?

    Often, fantasy makes the truth of Scripture, of our reality, feel significant and epic. Here, it’s the other way around. I can see a glimpse of Christ in Gethsemane in Aslan’s sadness, but Christ’s sorrows as expressed in the Gospels are far stronger and more moving, and Christ is far more dignified than Aslan.
    I especially noticed that there’s no parallel for all of Christ’s friends abandoning Him utterly. Aslan has to sneak away from his camp, presumably to avoid being followed. Susan and Lucy accompany him anyways, and he tries to tell them to go away. But Jesus was utterly forsaken when the soldiers came for Him. Before that, He longed for His disciples to sympathize with Him in the garden, but they could not be concerned enough even to stay awake.
    I can’t help but notice the parallel construction to “Oh children, children, why are you following me?” with “My God, my God, why have You forsaken Me?” The connection is probably unwarranted, but it reinforces the feeling that Jesus is infinitely more heroic than Aslan. Aslan worries about the children not forsaking him, while Jesus cries out in torment as He is forsaken by the Father.

  3. So, presumably the Witch has changed her mind about killing Edmund because her situation is so desperate, but she refuses to admit her desperation to herself? She must have known that Aslan would avenge the murder of the children of prophecy, otherwise she would have killed Edmund when she first saw him.

    My guess is that she was thinking much like Satan “thinks,” or so we might guess based on our own sinful thoughts: that we know God will win, yet we want to go our own way anyway. In the Witch’s case, I believe she was trying to deceive herself just as is the habit of many Narnian villains: for example, Edmund earlier in the story, Uncle Andrew when he refuses to believe a Lion can sing in The Magician’s Nephew, and the Dwarfs inside the stable in The Last Battle.

    The suggestion of the Stone Table’s ancient use is terrifying and tantalizing. This is clearly no place for telling. However, I don’t think enough information is given here to come to a full conclusion.

    That was my thought. Narnian “religion” or ancient rituals gets very little attention in this story and in others. For another world-based fantasy, such as Tolkien’s, this would be unthinkable. (Yet even he has unexplained anomalies. “Hey! Come merry dol! derry dol! My darling!”) But in Narnia it’s permissible, even expected.

    People were killed on the Stone Table once, and I’m pretty sure that the executions could not have been sacrifices to the Emperor.  The witch implies that the engravings on the Table state the Emperor’s Magic, that all traitors belong to her.

    Yet she could not have been involved with any Stone Table rituals, could she? The Table’s use predates the Hundred-Year Winter. Yet Magician’s Nephew readers know that the Witch was in Narnia from almost its very beginning. Perhaps the Table’s use dates back to another scheme of hers, before she froze the land.

    So, maybe it represents the Law that condemns sinners.

    If that’s true, Aslan or the Emperor made the Table, not the Witch. I happen to like the suggestion that the symbols are more like the Law — in fact, if the Emperor and/or Aslan put the symbols there, they must be, for they show the Deep Magic.

    I’m sure the idea of God having a “hangman” is bad theology, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the Witch could not have once been the Emperor’s executioner in the fictional world.

    On Saturday, someone pointed out that Aslan says “Peace, Beaver,” not to confirm what he said, or as if to say, “Yes, that may be true, but you’re out of line for saying it.” Aslan may have simply wanted to skip frivolous talk such as Mr. Beaver’s.

    Like the reference to Lilith (which I think has a greater chance of being “true” in the context of Narnia), Mr. Beaver isn’t exactly a reliable source of Narnian lore.

    Either that or Lewis simply “retconned” some details, such as the Witch’s origin. Mr. Beaver was certainly knowledgeable about mystical Jewish notions of “Lilith”!

    I agree. It would have been more theologically correct, and potentially even more interesting as fiction, if the Witch had said something like “You have a traitor in your midst. You know that the Deep Magic demands that you spill his blood, or all Narnia will perish!”

    In Saturday’s reading group, I think I came up with a solution.

    It’s this: if we’re trying to draw direct correlations … the Witch is not like Satan.

    So, the suggestion of Aslan working against the Deep Magic is like suggesting that God should just let sinners go without the shedding of anyone’s blood.

    This also came up during the Reading Group. Contrary to many people’s beliefs — especially given certain controversial debates regarding a chicken-sandwich restaurant and its founder’s views — Jesus does not “work against the Emperor’s magic.” God was not about Law, leaving Jesus to be All About Love. The “two” are of one accord. Similarly, Aslan is not “limited” by the Emperor’s magic. He is rather offended by the very notion that his will would not align with that of the Emperor.

    Often, fantasy makes the truth of Scripture, of our reality, feel significant and epic. Here, it’s the other way around. I can see a glimpse of Christ in Gethsemane in Aslan’s sadness, but Christ’s sorrows as expressed in the Gospels are far stronger and more moving, and Christ is far more dignified than Aslan.

    We also had some brief discussion about the Biblical concept that God the Father cannot be overcome or “moved” by anything outside Himself, even emotion. God the Son, however, as a Man, can be emotionally moved, just as He can somehow not be omniscient (such as not knowing the date of His own return, at least for a while). It’s confusing and a paradox, which is why Aslan’s distractions and deep sadness, even loneliness, were at first startling to me in this reading, before I pondered more.

    I especially noticed that there’s no parallel for all of Christ’s friends abandoning Him utterly.

    Indeed; another difference! Aslan is not, of course, dying for Peter and Susan and Lucy, but only Edmund, and he is put to death only by overt enemies. In one sense we could say this is an oversight or even dangerous to present — that they, not we, put Jesus to death. Yet it is a half-truth in a good way. I simply point this out so that some Christians, who allow for Narnia because it’s “allegory,” will see the clear inconsistencies and enjoy the story more, and be open to other stories as well.

    Despite my response delay, great discussion as usual; thanks, Bainespal.

    Oh, and this Thursday: the last LWW reading-group installment. I’ll also reveal who (or what) the White Witch more clearly resembles, and my guess is the comparison is not original with me. Some classic author out there somewhere likely found it years ago. I may have even read his comparison, but didn’t think of it until now.

  4. […] noted here, the Deep Magic is similar to God’s Law, but not exact. One does not need to parse the Witch’s […]

What do you think?