1. Metatron and Shadiversity do a lot of interesting analysis vids on stuff like this. Though usually more from the weapons and armor standpoint.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMC-gzAC1FI

    There’s a pretty decent amount of anime out there that do their own take on legends and history, with varying degrees of accuracy/realism. Many times they’ll add little tidbits of legends and other cultures as a tribute/exploration of those things. Hakuoki (particularly its third season Hakuoki Reimeiroku) borrows a lot from history, but has a very definite fantasy edge to it, since it includes Oni and the Water Of Life. Oni are legendary Japanese creatures.

    As long as it’s well done I do like that approach. I learned tidbits of Japanese history and culture I didn’t know much about and got to imagine what it would actually be like. Of course it’s not a super accurate portrayal, but it’s good for piquing people’s interest and encouraging them to research more.

    And it’s so fascinating to learn exactly how much they included from history while also putting their own spin on it. A man named Serizawa was the main antagonist in Hakuoki Reimeiroku, and at least from reading the Wikipedia article about him, they used and explored a lot of fascinating details from history. The most pertinent sections of this article are the Intro, Background, and Death/Assassination sections:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serizawa_Kamo

    The most obvious borrowed historical info is that he’s a large man that was the original leader…possessing a horrible drinking habit, extreme temper, and ruthless methods. And they followed one of the more prevailing theories that he was assassinated because he was too problematic.

    There aren’t a lot of good clips from the anime available on youtube, but here’s two that show one of the many situations where Serizawa was dangerous while also testing the resolve and patience of the other chars. For context, Souji acted the way he did because he was an orphan. He’s loyal to Kondou because Kondou practically raised him and is pretty much like a Father, Uncle, or much older brother. So Souji has very little tolerance for anything that threatens Kondou:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihEbSrL0uss

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjFI62ShQwU

    One great thing about this season is that it explores a lot of deep themes surrounding resolve and the moral dilemmas the chars have while pursuing their ideals. They had a very rosy perception of it at the beginning, but had to eventually realize their own naivety and that they can’t be so nice that people run all over them. But the best part was that Serizawa wasn’t just a run of the mill tyrant. He has very complicated motives that are worth trying to unravel as the series progresses, until they are finally revealed at the end. Even though he arguably went too far most of the time, he had specific reasons for doing so and was actually challenging the chars on purpose. Sometimes the most impactful lessons are dealt by the harshest people, and like him or not, Serizawa was definitely that kind of person for the main characters. I have a feeling those motives weren’t very directly supported by history, but that came about and was explored because the writers had to flesh Serizawa’s story out into something the audience could see unfolding before their eyes. The writers had to figure out something that made sense and/or probably wanted to explore all these themes specifically. So historical fantasy is the perfect opportunity to do something like that, and although I don’t usually seek out historical fantasy, I love finding little gems like this one.

    That said, Hakuoki Reimeiroku is only the third season of Hakuoki and a prequel to the other two seasons. The other two seasons were kind of just a silly romance story(not that all romance stories are lame, it’s just that the other two seasons of this show were a lot harder to take seriously). So in a way they actually embody what you talked about last week. The idea of a cheesy, annoying story actually spawning another tale that’s far more awesome.

    • Travis Perry says:

      Shadiversity I find annoying but Metatron I like. Yeah, Metatron went into some detail about how the weapons, armor, and Latin were accurate in Barbarian. If he did another video talking about the final battle, I didn’t see it. I read Dio Cassio and Tacitus years ago though and through that and other studies feel like I know as much about how Romans fought as the YouTube channels you’ve referenced, in particular in Teotoburg forest. (I like the Schola Gladitoria channel on YouTube best among those who talk about arms and armor–but Matt Easton tends to focus on late Medieval to modern weapons…though on occasion he talks about Romans. In particular, I found his observations about pila to be quite meaningful…)

  2. There’s a lot of hidden detail even in some anime that have a much looser interpretation of historical figures. Fate Zero is definitely a fantasy story that takes place in a fairly modern setting. But a core element is mages summoning historical/legendary figures to help them fight for the Holy Grail. So many details of the summoned heroes were inspired by legend and history. This ending theme is actually a good example of that. I learned later on that pretty much every still image in it was inspired/based on a historical artwork from each summoned hero’s legend:

    • Travis Perry says:

      Yeah, using history as an inspiration for fantasy is quite common. Tolkein’s battles in Lord of the Rings were at least to some degree influenced by his experiences in the trenches of WWI. And G.R.R. Martin openly states the War of the Roses in English history inspired much of Game of Thrones.

      Likewise, many old-time Westerns mixed historical events with fantasy action–in fact this is also extremely common in modern movies like Hostiles, in which details of uniforms are meticulously correct, but the degree of violence for the time period is way overblown.

      Anime isn’t my forte, but I’m not surprised to find it mixes history and fantasy.

      What’s different about Barbarians though is it’s wearing the clothing of the authentic story, of actual history, but isn’t quite. Getting the costumes and language right but changing events or changing how events happened according to the best information is more like how Quetin Tarantino uses history…

    • Travis Perry says:

      Yeah, using history as an inspiration for fantasy is quite common. Tolkein’s battles in Lord of the Rings were at least to some degree influenced by his experiences in the trenches of WWI. And G.R.R. Martin openly states the War of the Roses in English history inspired much of Game of Thrones.

      Likewise, many old-time Westerns mixed historical events with fantasy action–in fact this is also extremely common in modern movies like Hostiles, in which details of uniforms are meticulously correct, but the degree of violence for the time period is way overblown.

      Anime isn’t my forte, but I’m not surprised to find it mixes history and fantasy. (Gundam, which I do know, in many ways parallels WW2 history, but does not exactly copy it.)

      What’s different about Barbarians though is it’s wearing the clothing of the authentic story, of actual history, but isn’t quite. Getting the costumes and language right but changing events or changing how events happened according to the best information is more like how Quetin Tarantino uses history…

  3. L.A. Smith says:

    (rubs hands together)….
    I have been watching Barbarians with interest. As a writer of historical fantasy (more on that later) which is set in the 7th century (England) I have done quite a bit of research on the Anglo-Saxons and the Germanic tribes they sprang from. Like you, I am really appreciating the historical details of the show. I also loved hearing the Romans speak Latin – did not realize it was historically accurate Latin. That’s really cool! But I agree with you on your points about the historical inaccuracy of the cultures, both Roman and Germanic. It’s very hard for us, in post-Enlightenment times, to truly appreciate the mindset of people who lived before the Enlightenment. We divide religion OUT of our lives into a separate activity. They would never conceive of that. I love The Last Kingdom, which is even closer to the era that I am writing about, but this whole take on religion is irritating to me (although at the beginning, in that series they do present a fairly good portrayal of the clash between Christianity and the pagan Vikings). People were not atheistic back then. Everyone worshipped something. Religion was a huge part of everyday life. Often in these shows you see religion portrayed as a reflection of how it is in our modern world – people give lip service to belief, or proudly declare that they no longer believe, etc etc. There might have been a small amount of that happening, but NOT as frequently as is shown. And the sexuality component is also annoying. The young woman who freely gives herself to her lover with no thought of consequences is again, not a realistic portrayal. There was no birth control pill then, people. Women (and men) were far more cognizant of the potential consequences. The whole concept of romantic love is another historical error that often creeps into these shows. Which I understand. They are making the shows to sell and to be palatable to modern audiences. But I think they could do that without dumbing down the historical parts.
    As to “historical fantasy”….can I just say that I get really tired of people labelling stories set in vaguely medieval (or whatever era) but made-up worlds as “historical”? I find it so annoying to pick up a book that touts to be historical fantasy when it is not set in a real historical era. Just call it a fantasy!

    • Travis Perry says:

      Well, the Roman upper classes were becoming something like modern secularism at the time of Christ. But still, your average Roman soldier would have been very religious, with lots of cults we don’t even think about much, like worship of Mithra. I do agree though that the general attitude that most people are not religious was foreign to the past. In general I would say the portrayal of the Romans is better than the portrayal of the Germanic tribes. But that seems to have been a stylistic choice.

      As for historical fantasy, yeah the term is abused. I think Barbarians rightly qualifies as historical fantasy, because of certain elements. But a vague medieval feel is not good enough to be sure.

      I’d probably enjoy reading stories you write. 🙂

  4. notleia says:

    Even if it’s not strictly historically accurate, you can follow the logic on most of the decisions they made.
    Romans often adopted, so even if Varius didn’t adopt Arminius, there’s a sort of historical sense in there. There are philosophers recorded as being sarcastic or flippant about the gods (Catullus? Sounds like Catullus. IIRC Petronius, too), part and parcel with the Romans being pretty a la carte about religion as long as everybody acknowledged the divinity of the Emperor (which they have been plenty of sarcastic about, too).
    I guess most of the weirdest crap would be tied up in the decision to make the Germanic tribes relatable to modern people.
    But what I really want to know is about the CLOTHES. Tell me about unseamed or barely-seamed garments. Tell me about cultural differences in fiber usage and weaving technology.
    AFAIK none of my historical clothing peeps on Ootube have done a review on this series, tho there is a lady who tries to recreate both Roman and Celtic hairstyles based on archaeological evidence (she’s done that stuff for long before this series came out).

    • Travis Perry says:

      Yeah, though while making Arminius an adopted son is something that /could/ have happened, the Roman historians would have had to missed that detail if it had. And I just don’t see them missing it. Plus, Varus had not spent a lot of time in Germany, according to history. Yeah, even the Roman historians agree he was cruel and tried to extract more money than he should have. So…there really is only a little doubt that those details were wrong.

      However, from my point of view, the battlefield errors stemmed from a desire to thrill the audience with scenes they are used to seeing from fantasy shows like Game of Thrones. Hence the fire scene is not only the exact opposite of what history says (it says the battle ended in heavy rain) the Germanic tribes could not have made tall leaping fires that the Romans would not have noticed beforehand even if they wanted to. That kind of stuff annoys me–but I did find episodes 1-5 of interest, with lots of solid history.

      As for the fabrics and such, sorry, my knowledge of ancient details doesn’t go very far into fabric. But at least they showed barbarians wearing and producing fabrics, which was good…

  5. Darrick Dean says:

    I enjoyed Barbarians, partly because it follows the outline of actual history better than similar shows.The depiction of the Battle of Teutoburg Forest in the last episode was no doubt constrained by a television budget and fitting it in one hour. The actual battle was 3-4 days, more people, and almost entirely in the forest. The fire was a bit a much, but I thought they did end it in the rain? After watching the show, I read archaeologist Peter Well’s The Battle That Stopped Rome, which gives a lot of the cultural background for both sides.

  6. Darrick Dean says:

    The difficulty with making a history-based show with modern people, for modern people, is some of it always comes off as being contemporary. I think this was a big issue with Britannia (loosely based on the second Roman invasion of Britain). Sticking to the original languages, and better costuming, helped Barbarians overcome this to some extent. Plus a lot less fabricated drama (other than the love triangle). Season two will have a lot of potential for real drama. History records Arminius facing off across the battlefield against his brother, his son being captured, and various tribal struggles.

What do you think?