1. NetRaptor says:

    I always thought that Tolkien set out to give England a proper mythology, since its own is a hodgepodge of stuff from warring cultures that never settled down, like other civilizations did. So he took bits of stuff from other myths.
     
    Wagner isn’t the only storyteller with a magic ring. I’ve run across other stories with them (although the titles escape me). Magic trinkets are fantasy standard. Just because Wagner and Tolkien used the same tropes doesn’t mean one copied the other. They probably drew on the same source material. The critics don’t seem to have thought of that.
     
    I always thought “derivative” meant “copied directly from”, whereas there’s also this thing called “paying tribute”, which C.S. Lewis did with That Hideous Strength, including all of Tolkien’s Numinor lore. “Paying tribute” goes on all the time in the entertainment industry, from quoting popular lines to doing the Safety Dance or Rickrolling something.
     
    Eregon is extremely derivative. My sister and I read it with our noses wrinkled as we picked out exactly who he had copied at what point. Kid becomes a Dragonrider of Pern with one of Pern’s psychic dragons, fights evil Orcs from Lord of the Rings, and has Obi-Wan Kenobi/Gandalf as a mentor, who then dies. He didn’t even bother to try to give each trope his own personal spin.

    • NetRaptor, yes, I think I read somewhere that one of Tolkien’s desires was to create England’s own myth. I think he succeeded quite well! 😀

      You’re right about the ring not being exclusive to Wagner, which makes the criticisms of Tolkien ludicrous. Then there’s the whole idea that the first person to use an element, character, or device, somehow owns it and no one else can use it. I mean, if one artist in some genre at some time uses an object, can no other artist for all time use that same object? That’s ludicrous too.

      As I’ve thought about this more, I’ve landed on a word in the Oxford English Dictionary definition of derivative: imitation. I think the difference between what Tolkien did in making use of Celtic lore and what Paolini did in copying the tropes of other speculative fiction is tied up in the way each used the works that came before.

      I agree, there’s also an intentional nod to another writer–an element or name that others who know and love that work will recognize.

      I guess my big complaint is that some people sort of automatically think a story with a sword or a castle or elves is derivative. No, just like Tolkien used a ring similar to Wagner’s and was not derivative, so stories today can use tropes Tolkien used, and not be derivative.

      Becky

  2. Audrey says:

    Thanks for this article! You raise a very interesting question, since I know for myself I like how Tolkien weaves so much of the older lore into his works–it’s fun to read Beowulf and see Meduseld’s similarities to Heorot, for example. At the same time, I would probably (and in some cases have) put down other authors for borrowing from Tolkien in a similar way. Do you think it makes a difference that Tolkien was using older and less-known sources at the time? (Not counting Wagner, of course.)

    • Audrey, Tolkien did lean upon Celtic lore, so you make a good point–his source material, if you will, went so far back it wasn’t on the radar screen of his contemporaries reading his stories.

      Even today, knowing that he gleaned from old stories, we don’t generally think of that as derivative.

      Perhaps the key is that he wasn’t imitating them, but using them. There is a difference between the two, I think, though many who throw around the “derivative” accusation seem to be oblivious to it.

      Becky

  3. Keanan Brand says:

    Becky–

    Thought you might be interested in this Tolkien-related article over at Blue Zoo Writers: “Six Writing Tips from J.R.R. Tolkien“. It’s not about derivatives, but it’s good writing advice.

  4. sherwood smith says:

    I have come to the conclusion that literature is in conversation with itself, through authors, over generations, and cultures, and centuries.

    • Sherwood, what an interesting take on the subject. It makes a lot of sense–one author responding to (i. e. Phillip Pullman to C. S. Lewis) or mirroring another (all those considered derivative).

      And of course those who don’t write fiction aren’t party to these choices. Although I think the fact that so many people want to write fiction shows that we want to enter into the conversation.

      Becky

      • Bainespal says:

        And of course those who don’t write fiction aren’t party to these choices. Although I think the fact that so many people want to write fiction shows that we want to enter into the conversation.

        But those who don’t write fiction get to decide who gets accused of being derivative, and who gets upheld as a great writer, and who simply gets ignored.  Non-writers interpret the conversation, or comment on it, maybe the way a reader comments on a blog that he or she doesn’t write for.  And we non-writers don’t always interpret or comment fairly. 😉

        • But those who don’t write fiction get to decide who gets accused of being derivative, and who gets upheld as a great writer, and who simply gets ignored.

          Ha! Good point! 😆

          But interrupting or commenting is part of the conversation, as is getting to decide who’s great and who to ignore. There’s more than one way to get an opinion across, yes?

          Becky

What do you think?