1. Laurel C Kriegler says:

    I am aware of Christians who do write on the more realistic topics, using the Bible (and all the flaws of humanity included therein) as a blueprint. Writing art for art’s sake. Avoiding evangelistic propaganda but writing books that deal with the grittiness of life in all it’s non-glory. They are few and far between, but the trend is on the upswing.

  2. Lisa says:

    I agree with this, to a point. I do think we have to be careful about standing on soapboxes. That has been WAY overdone in Christian fiction, in my opinion. I do think the story matters, that art matters. It’s very difficult to write a story about an “issue” and do it well, I think. But that’s not to say that we shouldn’t try.

  3. Amy Davis says:

    Here’s a thought: What if we just wrote really good stories and let our worldview pepper them? What if our intent was just to write compelling, thought-provoking stories without “reducing them to a tract” (as Francis Schaeffer said)? What if we just focused on creating excellent art because that’s what our Creator has called us to do?

    The thing is, if we’re walking in obedience to Him and writing as if writing for the Lord (Col. 3:17), then our worldview will come through naturally.

    But I may not be the best commenter on this subject, because I gave up my writing because I felt like I had no place in the Christian writing community or in the secular writing community. My work is too “in-between.” When I write my worldview, secular commenters have said that the work is too clean and the characters too pure, while Christian commenters have said my content is objectionable. I may be a bit (okay, a lot) jaded. Jesus and I are working on that. He has opinions. I’m working on obedience.

  4. Amy Davis says:

    Side note: I was working on a novel series where feminism was the overarching world philosophy and the women had all of the power. I did want to explore what would happen in that world, because I *do* think women use power differently than men. But I gave it up, because I had given the women magic and called them “witches,” and I knew too many people would object to the very terminology. Thing is, though, if you want to give women power, you have to give them some kind of advantage over men, and the magic was a way to give them a physical advantage. And I called them witches just because I felt like it.

    Point being . . . I do think that if you want Christian speculative authors to write books that explore these kinds of subjects with a Christian worldview, you have to make room for them in the Christian writing community. Even if we write content that you don’t like, you need to allow room for Christian liberty, and you need to recognize that this community is where we want to come for support when the secular community says our work is too pure or too Christian.

    All that said . . . It’s a moot point for me, because as I said, I gave mine up. I only do commercial copywriting now. It’s much safer that way. (I do write my fiction as a hobby, but I have no intention of ever publishing it again.)

    *braces for impact*

    • dmdutcher says:

      I’d say still write it, but you could flip the setting to a science fiction one. For some odd reason, you can make functional magic if you cloak it in science talk, and Christians usually don’t mind. I actually have a similar concept in my own files, but a bit more radical in scope. I know the feeling of hesitating to write because of the audience.

      • Amy Davis says:

        But I don’t write science fiction. And honestly, Christians could just come to terms with the fact that magic is an okay way to tell a story.

         

        I’m not sure why I have to change what I write because the Christian writing community thinks I’m wrong. Isn’t that really between me and God? I have prayed about my writing for more hours than I can count, and while I have been convicted of sin in several areas, content has not been one of them. The Spirit has not been shy about conviction. I think if He had something to say, He’d have said it.

         

        But as I said–I don’t write anymore. It’s too hard, and I’m not strong enough. No one criticizes me for writing web copy. I’ll stick with commercial copywriting, thankyouverymuch. And I might write the fiction as a hobby, but it’ll stay hidden on my hard drive unless God gives me a very clear and compelling reason to share it.

        • Leanna says:

          Whoa, I was thinking of you the other day! Nice to see you around the interwebz again. 🙂

          Also, I totally hadn’t made that connection before in regards to the magic as a support for feminism in your story world. It’s the same conclusion I came to in one of my wips, but I’m still in the constantly-drastically changing phase of world building so who knows what the final outcomes will be.

          Oh, also, you have proofreading/editing listed under services on your website but would you write backcopy for a novel?

          • Amy Davis says:

            Leanna, the story I mentioned in these comments was a different one from the ones you read. No one ever read the one I mentioned here–not even my hubby! And no one ever will. 🙂

            Yes, I am around on the Interwebz. Just a different corner of it. A friend posted this article on Facebook today, and I couldn’t resist adding my 2 cents.

            Will slink back to the copywriting corner of the Internet now that I’m done with my rant . . . (Fast Company, Inc., Forbes, etc.–much, much safer!) I am blogging about copywriting, motherhood, and knitting at amyrosedavis.com, though. Feel free to drop by there. 🙂

          • Amy Davis says:

            Oh, and just noticed your other question–yes, I would definitely do back copy, blurbs, etc. for a novel IF I had proofed/edited it. I wouldn’t want to do that stuff unless I had a pretty good idea of what the novel was about. 🙂

            Thanks for asking!

        • dmdutcher says:

          It depends really what you want. If you love the story as is, self-publish or submit to the small presses. A lot of them wouldn’t be put off by using the name witch for a character. Jessica Thomas at Provision Books comes to mind. Or if you want to get the message of the book out to a wider audience, you’d have to compromise; you can’t really expect the mainstream audience to change and there’s a big argument of just how much you have to write to them as much as yourself. I was thinking of how to do the latter without changing much of the actual message.

          People will have issues with fiction no matter how you write it, so it’s just how much you want to alter your concept to reach the audience you want. Sounds like you had a bad experience with someone reading your work.

           

           

          • Amy Davis says:

            I did self-publish. I had six titles live before I unpublished everything. I even had an agent at a well-known agency for a while. She tried to sell my novel to the big publishing houses. The feedback was actually fairly good, even though the book didn’t sell. The biggest problem people had was with my world-building, apparently. I know that’s my weakness. My characters and writing were praised.

            The reasons why I unpublished are numerous and are NOT limited to the feedback I got from Christians, but I would be lying if I said that feeling like I wasn’t able to fit my work into a lens of modern Evangelicalism wasn’t a factor at all. It was. Theologically and politically, I’m as conservative as they come, but that means that I tend to hang out with a set of people who just will not leave room for messy fiction. My characters sin, and I’m not shy about that. And sometimes, they may do things that may NOT be sinful, but are just “icky.” And there’s the magic, which I enjoy writing and I think can be useful in telling a tale.

            Almost all of the feedback I ever got about my characters from the secular reader was positive (there was the occasional “too pure” criticism). I think the characters could have been useful in pointing people to the Ultimate Storyteller, because they were flawed, messy, but ultimately redeemable. Mostly. I think the characters were people that the average unchurched Joe could relate to. But secular fantasy is trending very dark, and I just don’t write that dark. So I didn’t fit there, and I don’t fit in the CBA market, so . . .

            My books are still on Goodreads, unfortunately. Goodreads wouldn’t take them down. If you are curious, you can see what I had published before. https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/4514379.Amy_Rose_Davis?from_search=true

            But as I say, I unpublished everything, and I don’t intend to go back to it.

    • Matthias M. Hoefler says:

      Yours sounds like work I’d like to read!

    • Julie D says:

      I have a slightly similar story. I was working on a group story, and we didn’t want to have disagreements about inappropriate contact between characters, so we set it up that women had magic that they lost if they had skin-to-skin contact with a man.  Eventually the story feel apart and I considered redoing it on my own–and then I realized we’d inadvertently come up with the most blatant sexual metaphor imaginable.

      Still think we had some good potential there, but the implications aren’t going to work.

  5. Hannah says:

    Great inspiration and food for thought!

    Although I haven’t read them, I think the dystopian Safe Lands Trilogy approaches some pretty serious issues, such as what would happen if reproduction was controlled by the government. (AAACK!)

    Also, in the fantasy, Dragonwitch, there was a society that once had been ruled by men, but was twisted around to be controlled by women.

     

    • Hannah, the Safe Lands does touch on some of this, but its main focus is elsewhere. We don’t really see what would happen if the kids get raised by the government–just what the society resulting from that system looks like. I highly recommend the series! Read it when you get the chance.

      Becky

  6. dmdutcher says:

    There are some books that try. That James Dobson series comes to mind. The problem is that those kind of books from Christians are usually very bad because very few of them understand the thing they warn us against, or are willing to speculate realistically instead of just writing a novel based on buzzwords or worse, illusions.

    Like homosexuality. It’s not something like typhoid or malaria, that spreads and can be cured. It’s not just writing a man like you would a woman. If you aren’t careful enough to understand the thing, you can wind up writing an awful piece of camp people will laugh at for years. Rona Jaffee’s Mazes and Monsters did this about Dungeons and Dragons, and over thirty years later people still mock it for getting so much wrong.

    I think people should write topical novels, but on things that they do understand or can do so without resorting to sin. Otherwise it will lead to bad polemics based on stereotype and misunderstanding.

    • The problem is that those kind of books from Christians are usually very bad because very few of them understand the thing they warn us against, or are willing to speculate realistically instead of just writing a novel based on buzzwords or worse, illusions.

      This quote should be framed and given to all artists (Christian and secular alike). I am tired of seeing presentations of churches and Christians that are so ignorant, but likewise am tired of people attempting to write about secular situations they know little to nothing about. Case in point: I work in the entertainment industry, mostly theatre, also some film. There are many, many misconceptions out there about how we “artsy” folks work and how we live. It’s not simply “write what you know;” I put no limitations on imagination. But we should always avoid caricature.

      For starters, I’d like more realistic portrayals of troubles within the church. Could we please write stories where two are actually both Christians but have fundamental differences about how to serve, without either one being evil? Kirk Outerbridge managed to pull that off in his first Rick Macey book, but such explorations are few and far between. By the way Kirk, if you’re out there, inquiring minds would like to know what Macey’s been up to in recent years.

  7. Henrietta says:

    Just this Saturday I came across Andrew Kooman.  I am reading his YA fantasy Ten Silver Coins and I plan a review on this site.  I do believe he is working on this model of galvanising people around an issue, his issue being exploitation of the marginalised in South East Asia.

    By the way, I don’t think women need a physical advantage to ‘rule’ over men.  A mental/psychological/intellectual advantage is well enough, gives sufficient plot possibilities.  There are societies that practice polyandry, though the woman does not necessarily gain ‘power’ in this arrangement.

    How much harder and more fanciful it would be to write a egalitarian novel where power is shared and conflict is subtle.

    • Amy Davis says:

      Perhaps I stated that poorly. In the world I created, the women did need a physical advantage, to some degree. You’re right–it’s not absolutely necessary, but it was necessary in the world I created. Also, a significant part of the story I was working on had to do with a movement toward a more egalitarian world–a “men’s rights movement,” if you will.

      But, as I said, it’s abandoned now. *shrug*

  8. J A Busick says:

    I think Russell Kirk is particularly well-spoken on the issue of moral relevance in fiction:

    http://www.crisismagazine.com/2013/beyond-newspaper-chewing-why-it-matters-what-is-read-in-high-school-part-i-of-ii

    “…the usual courses in literature, from the ninth grade through the twelfth (also, generally, in lower grades), suffer from two chief afflictions. The first of these is a misplaced eagerness for “relevance”. The second of these is a kind of sullen purposelessness—a notion that literature, if it has any end at all, is   meant   either to  stir up  discontents,  or else merely to amuse. Let me touch briefly here on both troubles.
    Literature certainly ought to be relevant to something. But to what? Too many anthologists and teachers fancy that humane letters ought to be relevant simply to questions of the hour—the latest political troubles, the fads and foibles of the era, the concerns of commercial television or of the daily newspaper. Such shallow relevance to the trivial and the ephem­eral must leave young people prisoners of what Eliot called the provincial­ity of time: that is, such training in literature is useless to its recipients within a few years, and leaves them ignorant of the enduring truths of human nature and of society.
    Genuine relevance in literature, on the contrary, is relatedness to what Eliot described as “the permanent things”: to the splendor and tragedy of the human condition, to constant moral insights, to the spectacle of human history, to love of community and country, to the achievements of right reason. Such a literary relevance confers upon the rising generation a sense of what it is to be fully human, and a knowledge of what great men and women of imagination have imparted to our civilization over the centuries. Let us be relevant in our teaching of literature, by all means—but relevant to the genuine ends of the literary discipline, not relevant merely to what will be thoroughly irrelevant tomorrow.”

  9. Todd Boddy says:

    Can an author be simultaneously entertaining, mentally-morally stretching and bold enough to approach sacred PC cows/bulls/steers without fear of  being pigeonholed, blacklisted, …. or worse, ignored?

    The litmus tests of western culture as to the fitness of our civility has arrived, so we can be rooted out simply by who we voted for,  what we privately believe or have contributed to. (nothing really historically new)  If that be the case, we might as well dig in on the issues and develop our creative voices with more than mindless short blurbs; a real live novel with lots of research and layers of understanding.

    Speculative faith, for me apocalyptic-scifi-fantasy are perfect for this. Didn’t Jesus entertain and make personal, political, and faith points through narrative?  At the core of his parables especially are paradoxical truths, that as much as many have tried to deconstruct and assail, they still haven’t lent themselves to being extinguished by cultural fads or rationalism.

     

  10. Matthias M. Hoefler says:

    Think of the Berenstain Bears. Maybe preachiness is O.K. or even to be desired. If the message is too subtly turned out, readers may not get what the author thinks she’s put on the page. The message must stand out like a snowball in Hell. Don’t use a feather when a sledgehammer will do 🙂

    But I can’t consider that for more than a moment. Preachy books are unconscionable. Fair warning: my degree is from a secular college. I have attitudes and dispositions that came from being there during some of my formative thinking years. And that in the hands of those who did not want God in their lives or classrooms. That’s the way it seemed to me, anyway.

    To preach or not to preach. Can we say each author must answer this question for herself on a case by case basis? Even to the point of answering yes for one story, but no for the next?

    If we avoid preachiness, it should be possible to write a good novel that tackles an issue. I guess some people feel that way about the movie “Fireproof.” I got ten minutes into that thing and stopped watching. Too preachy. And I’m a Christian.

    Jesus’ parables weren’t terribly preachy. The people heard Him gladly, the Bible says. He didn’t explain many of the parables to the crowd. When “a sower went out to sow,” they heard an interesting story that to many of them, until after His death and resurrection, would be nothing more. These stories weren’t unraveled until the disciples penned the gospels. And we’re still unraveling them.

    A great example of “preachy lite” would be “Blue Like Jazz.” In some way, this is not a Christian film. Even though penned by Steve Taylor, a musician of 80’s fame. The film contains objectionable material, actually. Yet, there is a message at the end of the thing. Maybe a little preachy. But you enjoyed the ride so much you’re willing to excuse it. At least, I was.

    Reconsider the Bible, that masterpiece of narrative. The account of these mens’ and womens’ lives is Literature in the capital “L” sense. But even the Bible doesn’t always indicate when something pleased the Lord, nor else when it upset Him. Many times it does, but not in every case. Case by case basis?

    What further implications for our discussion does the Bible have? Or does it have any?

    A side note: people, most people, are hungry for meaning and truth. That longing is placed there by God somehow. They may not even know they want the Lord, Truth with a capital “T.” The Truth that is Christ. Perhaps precious few go on longing for it even after salvation.

    Think of the movie “Million Dollar Baby.” In case you haven’t seen it yet – spoiler to follow – that movie has story, sure as James Brown had soul. Frankie Dunn and Eddie Scrap-Iron Dupris (the characters of Clint Eastwood and Morgan Freeman) are fleshed out and enjoyable to watch. It’s a story rather than a tract: there is conflict, and there is the pleasure of winning. Also terrible tragedy: Maggie Fitzgerald (Hilary Swank) is paralyzed by Billie “the Blue Bear” with a sucker punch. You hate that this happens to Fitzgerald.

    Only at the end of the movie does the message come: is assisted suicide ever right? It’s not treated philosophically or religiously. It is played out dramatically. Nobody says, “You shouldn’t do that,” or “Think of euthanasia this way, dear Macushla.” Eastwood’s character struggles and finally does what he thinks is right. He acts, and it’s devastating. It works as a movie. Maybe the great impact it has stems simply from the fact that the message is not preached? The POV does what we think he should, or rather, probably for many readers here, does exactly the opposite.

     
    This inversion heightens the impact, as Jack London once suggested.

    • Laurel C Kriegler says:

      Two of the books (series, in fact) that probably caused me to think the most about God and His nature (aside from reading the Bible and Christian doctrinal books) were from the fantasy and scifi genres. They didn’t even pretend to have a message, and I know that at least the one author was not in the  least interested in making any sort of religious comments through his writing. Yet they spoke to me and made me think about God in a clearer fashion than I had before; realise truths I had till then not realised; be thankful that God is Who He is.

      Anything in the universe can speak to someone about God.

    • Amy Davis says:

      You sound like a kindred spirit. 🙂

      I agree–preachy books, movies, songs, etc. are ALL unconscionable. But there persists in the Christian entertainment industry (and make no mistake about it–it IS an industry) the idea that if we haven’t SHARED THE GOSPEL (just that loud), then we’re somehow failing God.

      Personally, I don’t read any books that preach at me. There’s a reason I don’t read CBA books (as a rule) or watch Christian movies or even listen to the local Christian radio station. I have still not seen Courageous, and don’t get me started on Fireproof. But I also don’t read Phillip Pullman because in my view, his books attempt to beat one upside the head with his philosophy. I’m also not likely to read any post-apocalyptic novel that insists on preaching to me the Moral Imperative of Stopping Man Made Climate Change.

      But would I read a book about a struggling marriage in which both characters have some growing to do? Sure, why not? Would I read a book written by an atheist? I’ve read Douglas Adams, so I guess I would. But Adams told a really fun and funny story through the lens of atheism and naturalism, and I was able to enjoy the story without subscribing to his beliefs. Would I read a book in which a huge climate catastrophe destroyed much of the world and the survivors have to make a way in it? I’ve read The Road, and it was brilliant. But McCarthy didn’t preach about the catastrophe–he just wrote a compelling narrative about a Man and a Boy and their struggles, and it was relatable and beautiful and haunting.

      THAT’s the kind of story I want to read. THAT’s the kind of story we should be writing.

      Look, we don’t have to hide our faith. We don’t have to hide our worldview. But would you eat carrot cake that had huge self-conscious chunks of carrot in it that screamed, “LOOK AT ME, FOR I AM CARROT CAKE AND I AM HERE TO NOURISH YOU, YOU SLACKER WHO DOES NOT EAT VEGETABLES!!”? Or would you rather eat carrot cake that is flavored gently with shredded carrots–a cake in which you can still taste all of the other flavors and doesn’t seem to be trying so stinkin’ hard?

      That’s all I’m saying.

      • Zac Totah says:

        But would I read a book about a struggling marriage in which both characters have some growing to do? Sure, why not? Would I read a book written by an atheist? I’ve read Douglas Adams, so I guess I would. But Adams told a really fun and funny story through the lens of atheism and naturalism, and I was able to enjoy the story without subscribing to his beliefs. Would I read a book in which a huge climate catastrophe destroyed much of the world and the survivors have to make a way in it? I’ve read The Road, and it was brilliant. But McCarthy didn’t preach about the catastrophe–he just wrote a compelling narrative about a Man and a Boy and their struggles, and it was relatable and beautiful and haunting.

        THAT’s the kind of story I want to read. THAT’s the kind of story we should be writing.

        Brilliantly said, Amy.

    • I don’t think an author needs to be preachy to galvanize people toward an issue, Matthias. In fact, I suspect it’s just the opposite. Preachiness can have people lining up on the side of agreement or disagreement and never move people to cross the line. The idea of galvanizing people is getting the fence-sitters to get up and get moving.

      Becky

  11. Marion says:

    Human beings are subjective by nature and their worldview will always creep into whatever art they are producing.  That’s why I’ve always thought this argument against Christian Fiction and Movies has been flawed. The problem of the dreaded preachy   story that supposedly both sides of the spectrum (Christian and Non-Christian) hate so much.  However, the secular artists are allowed and even encouraged to be preachy….as long as it’s not coming from a Christian worldview.

    It seems to me that this never-ending debate is about killing the growing Christian art scene instead of encouraging to get better and grow.  That is what has been missing from the issue.

    I read a lot of blogs and comments from Christians that are quick to type  that I will not read preachy Christian Fiction or watch Christian Movies.  We want the subtle stuff.  Well, I’m in my 40’s and subtle is a very subjective thing.  That is a very slippery slope to be asking for in any artistic endeavor.

    Moreover, it seems like of Christian readers are looking for the great novel to put up against our secular counterparts and shout to them…..we can produce great art as well.  However, we are doing it in the name of Jesus Christ.  Well, most of our secular counterparts would still criticize this great Christian work of art because of the worldview it is presenting.

    My hope is that as a Christian artistic we community encourage and help those who are producing novels, films, and the like to grow.  Give honest criticism as needed and encourage them to continue.  I understand no one wants to read a bad novel or watch a bad film….but those who are really gifted as an artist need growth and time in order to produce great art. It’s a rare for someone to be a great artist after producing one or two works of fiction or films.

    That’s why I have tired of the preachy argument against Christian art.  It really does not advance the ball forward and I want to focus on and support artists (who truly want to do this) bad or good to continue and grow in their craft.  True great art comes from perservance, time, and unexpectedly.

     

    Marion

     

    • I agree, Marion, and I’ll add my pet peeve–critics of Christian fiction who don’t read Christian fiction. Sure, I understand, there was a time when Christian fiction wasn’t done particularly well. And there are still books today that aren’t well written that are getting published by traditional houses. But that’s not the entire picture and we ought to recognize the developments and support the good writers.

      How else will publishers who are out to make a buck (yes, it is an industry–and most traditional Christian houses are owned by secular companies, so it’s more of a business than ever), how will they know which authors to keep contracting? Seriously. If a writer is excellent but people don’t buy her books because they don’t read Christian fiction, then the contract goes to someone who writes preachy fiction because there are still readers who want a validating tract.

      Becky

    •  I read a lot of blogs and comments from Christians that are quick to type  that I will not read preachy Christian Fiction or watch Christian Movies.  We want the subtle stuff.  Well, I’m in my 40′s and subtle is a very subjective thing.  That is a very slippery slope to be asking for in any artistic endeavor.

      Agreed. “Subtlety” is in the mind of the beholder. Anyway, most people don’t really want that, proved solely by the unsubtle novels and films that most of us actually spend money to enjoy:

      • The Hunger Games. Not subtle; despite its strengths, the over-the-top “this is like Rome with its elitist gluttony and vomitoriums now, ‘k?” stuff in Catching Fire had me rolling my eyes a little)
      • Twilight. Hawt sparkling teen vampire consumerism and SEX!
      • Harry Potter. It’s all about the Power of Love. And racism is bad against muggles and house-elves and presumbly others. Also, HERO’S JOURNEY.
      • Star Wars. HERO’S JOURNEY.
      • The Avengers and all other superhero films: HERO’S JOURNEY. Also, evil is bad, and best combatted by becoming a true hero and/or smashing things.

      It begins to sound like the pleas for “subtlety” are often unique to Christian fiction — or are they? Actually I suggest that some pleas for story “subtlety” is preferred only for themes and ideas other than clear condemnations of sins such as gluttony, power abuse, elitism, racism, lack-of-love, greed, and clear representations of evil.

      So we may conclude that in some cases, when we say “make the story more subtle,” we really mean: “Please make the less-popular themes subtle — e.g., Christianity’s claims to exclusivity, sexual ethics, repentance, Judgment, etc. The rest are fine.”

  12. Amy Davis says:

    Stephen, there’s a difference, though, between literary themes and motifs and agenda. Some of what you point out would be under themes and motifs. I haven’t read The Hunger Games trilogy (though I have seen both movies, and I found them rather “meh”) or Twilight, but as for the other three you mention, yes, of course the Hero’s Journey was obvious. So what? The stories were told in such a compelling and entertaining way that it didn’t matter that it was obvious. One could say the same about The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, too. “Oh look–it’s so OBVIOUS that Aslan is Jesus.” Yes, okay–so what? Secular readers (and viewers) also enjoy the story, so they don’t care about the obvious allegory there.

    So perhaps what people mean when they say “preachy” is really “preachy without making me care about the characters or the plot, without entertaining me, without giving me something else that makes the preachiness worth ignoring.” So maybe it’s more a matter of creating better art in the vein of J. K. Rowling, George Lucas, Marvel, and C. S. Lewis. If the art is excellent, the obvious themes (and potentially, obvious agendas) don’t matter.

    As to the agenda issue–that’s something different. That’s literature written with a very clear purpose to persuade and provoke to action. I wouldn’t read something heavy-handed in any category or genre, but let’s talk about that issue for a minute. The message I got from Rebecca’s post was, “Christians should be writing agenda-driven fiction that I agree with, but without all the icky bits.” So *my* question is, how are you going to do that and make a compelling story that captures the attention and imagination of the secular world? Or does it matter? If it doesn’t matter, then by all means–keep writing what you’re writing. Christians need stories too, and if they don’t want to read all of the icky bits, then I’m sure there will always be Christian writers who are willing to oblige. That’s fine. That’s great, in fact, because we all have different tolerance levels and can handle different things in our fiction.

    HOWEVER, what Rebecca was pointing out was that the secular world is suggesting that agenda-driven fiction is a way to provoke and persuade, and she’s wondering how we can be part of that. If you want to part of that, you’re going to have to either 1) let some of the icky bits in, or 2) create such an outstanding, non-preachy book that everyone is willing to take a look. That’s what Rowling, Lewis, and Lucas did. Yes, they were obvious, but it didn’t matter. In fact, in Rowling’s case, I would submit that she created a profoundly Christian story that happened to be so well-told that it captured the imagination of an entire world without mentioning God much at all. (Except in the last book. Seriously, you could write a Bible study on the last book.)

    Here’s a good example of how to write a great story without bludgeoning a reader with God: The Book of Esther. What if we wrote like that–great, compelling, exciting, engaging stories where God is in the background the whole time but isn’t smacking us with His presence?

    As a footnote, because I think some here might wonder, I have sampled a fair amount of Christian fiction, and I will read it when it’s recommended to me. I *love* Stephen Lawhead, still, after all these years. I read Redeeming Love, by Francine Rivers, because a friend suggested it, and I did enjoy it very much, obvious parts notwithstanding. I read Ted Dekker’s Paradise Trilogy, and it was . . . Well, it was okay. Saint was excellent, but the first and last books left me feeling rather bludgeoned with symbolism. I’m sure I’ve read some other stuff by Christian authors, but names escape me at the moment. Of course, that’s Christian fiction. I read lots of Christian non-fiction–J. P. Moreland, Greg Koukl, Tim Keller (just starting on my first one today, but have been following him for a while), Eric Metaxas, and of course, C. S. Lewis, my favorite apologist. So it’s not that I’m unfamiliar with Christian literature, but if I’m reading fiction, I look for good storytelling, excellent characters, and decent writing. If there’s an agenda, it better not be bludgeoning me, or I will put the book down, Christian or not.

    Here’s the problem I see with this post and some of the comments (and, in general, the tone of Speculative Faith). The problem I see is that you don’t want to leave room for the author who professes faith in Christ, but is called to write the icky bits. That’s not your call. That’s between the author and his Lord. And if God is giving me stories that have the icky bits or the bits you don’t agree with, and if I’m praying my heart out in an attempt to make sure I’m right, that I really should write the icky bits, and if I’m passing it by beta readers and editors who are willing to say, “are you sure?” about the icky bits, then it’s really not your call to say that I’m not walking in obedience. I know there are books out there that tackle these big subjects through a biblical lens, but most of them are hidden in drawers or on hard drives because my Christian brothers and sisters are terrified of sharing with other Christians. Or, they might be published through secular houses or self-published on Amazon, but then they aren’t seen as “real” Christian literature. Look, there was a time when this distinction wasn’t even an issue. There are deep Christian themes in Charles Dickens, but I doubt the CBA would publish him if he were writing today. He wrote a lot of agenda-driven fiction, and he was a professing Christian. But he left in the icky bits of his day. If he were writing now, if he tackled some of the issues Rebecca mentioned, I think he’d still leave in the icky bits. That was his way. And it would automatically exclude him from the CBA world.

    This will be my last comment on this post–and indeed, on this blog. Clicking on this link only confirmed for me that 1) I did the right thing in burying my work forever, because I’ve been nothing but irritated since I first read this post, and 2) there’s no room for my fiction in the world of the CBA. I do wish you all the best, and I hope you all find an audience for your work.

    • HG Ferguson says:

      “Here’s the problem I see with this post and some of the comments (and, in general, the tone of Speculative Faith). The problem I see is that you don’t want to leave room for the author who professes faith in Christ, but is called to write the icky bits. That’s not your call. That’s between the author and his Lord. And if God is giving me stories that have the icky bits or the bits you don’t agree with, and if I’m praying my heart out in an attempt to make sure I’m right, that I really should write the icky bits, and if I’m passing it by beta readers and editors who are willing to say, “are you sure?” about the icky bits, then it’s really not your call to say that I’m not walking in obedience.”

      Bravo, Amy.  God doesn’t shy away from the “icky bits” in His Word, nor should any Christian writer.

      “The problem I see is that you don’t want to leave room for the author who professes faith in Christ, but is called to write the icky bits.”

      There’s not a lot of room for a number of things in the contemporary Christian writing community.  Thank you for being honest.  I hope everyone else who reads this will be just as honest.

       

    • The message I got from Rebecca’s post was, “Christians should be writing agenda-driven fiction that I agree with, but without all the icky bits.”

      Amy, this comment makes me think you read this post through the lens of your preconceptions. Where did I say anything that could remotely be construed as “without all the icky bits”?

      As I see it, dealing with the how a Christian is to write is a separate issue from what and why. In this post I’m wondering if we Christian writers aren’t behind the times—while non-believing writers embrace fiction as a vehicle to galvanize people to their causes, we are left in the starting gate of creating art or writing good stories.

      Not that I think our stories should be bad art or bad stories. But I think we can do more. In fact I think our society needs more. They have questions about serious things—pulling the plug on a loved one the doctor says won’t recover, dealing with latent racism, confronting the existence of millions of immigrants who entered the US illegally, tackling the ramifications of drone technology in our backyard,

      What about any of these things does the Bible have to say? Is there a Christian position to which we can galvanize people?

      I’ve written quite a few posts on the technique of writing themes without being preachy. Having a theme that serves as a call to action is not the same thing as being preachy. Nor is framing our position based on what the Bible says, a call to leave “the icky bits” out.

      Becky

      • Amy Davis says:

        Because you asked me a specific question, I’ll respond. You said we should be writing about things like homosexuality, abortion, and feminism. But you also said, “I don’t think we should copy the way the world is working. I really don’t.”

        Now, there are a couple of ways to interpret that, and in the context of the article, I can see that you might have been saying, “we shouldn’t write agenda-driven fiction just because the world is doing it.” But based on my previous interactions here on this site, I have to wonder–what about that novel where a main character is bisexual and in a loving relationship, or where a woman falls into sexual sin because of her guilt over previous abortions, or where a society falls into raging gender wars with atrocities and bad words and sexual evils perpetrated on both sides? If I wrote such a novel and left in the bisexual loving relationship, the sexual sin, or the bad words and insults, you cannot tell me that the CBA would ever even consider publishing such a thing. And I’m not necessarily talking about graphic stuff–just the violations of writer’s guidelines in various CBA publishing houses.

        Preconceptions? Some. But they are based on previous interactions here. There is no place for the icky bits in Christian fiction. And sometimes, it’s the icky bits that draw in readers who might not otherwise read Christian fiction. So we have to ask ourselves–will we leave room for the bad words, the portrayal of sin that actually does feel good (even if it’s temporary), the violence, the ugliness of the world? Or will we refuse to acknowledge it because it makes us want to cover our eyes?

        If you would like to discuss this further, I invite you to e-mail me privately at amy@amyrosedavis.com.

         

      • If I can join back in (later I’ll re-engage the above discussion more in detail) …

        My starting point about such topics is usually first by asking what is the “chief end” of story-enjoyment altogether? Notice I start with “story enjoyment” rather than “writing” — I’ve thought for a while that sometimes folks plunge into shop-talk about the manufacturing of a story before discussing how we can be wise story “consumers.” I often ask what is the chief end of story? because I think that behind many well-meaning Christians’ beliefs about stories’ purpose lies a kind of “evangelism” suspicion. Both the stereotypical cleaned-up-CBA-type advocate and the opposite response often feign to be On the Side of the Readers Who Need to See Better from Christian Authors, so that they will think better of us and get better Art. And while I think that’s a worthy goal, I do believe it’s not the ultimate goal for the Christian story fan or story athor.

        Please know I don’t suspect anyone in the discussion of having said lesser goals. I just like to make sure to find common ground about the purpose of stories and their craft altogether — a purpose according to God’s revealed Story — before going on with the discussion. Otherwise we’d be speaking different languages!

      • The problem I see is that you don’t want to leave room for the author who professes faith in Christ, but is called to write the icky bits. That’s not your call. That’s between the author and his Lord. And if God is giving me stories that have the icky bits or the bits you don’t agree with, and if I’m praying my heart out in an attempt to make sure I’m right, that I really should write the icky bits, and if I’m passing it by beta readers and editors who are willing to say, “are you sure?” about the icky bits, then it’s really not your call to say that I’m not walking in obedience.

        This stuck out to me, and I want to applaud, with a couple of clarifications:

        • SpecFaith is primarily for readers and not writers or authors.
        • My own view is the same as yours, that “icky bits” in the stories you enjoy (or write) are indeed issues of conscience between you and the Creator. I hope that is a view that SpecFaith altogether endorses, though of course with a variety of regular writers and even more weekly contributors you will find just as many (if not more) perspectives on the particulars.
        • The only authority to which Christians can appeal is Scripture itself.
        • That’s what I hope I do when I ask about the “chief end” of story (language that you would recognize from some of those boss nonfiction authors you mentioned). And when I personally bring up topics such as why we want to have icky bits, my intent is not to levy guilt for supposed sin. It’s only to ensure that, despite these being mainly issues of conscience, we are still using “icky bits” for the glory of God (according to Scripture where it does speak on these topics) and not merely in order to enjoy or make Great Art and/or to reach out to more readers. I believe the latter two goals are very good goals. But if readers/fans (or writers) focus on those goals as if they were the Chief End, I say they may have misplaced their missions and will not be able to reach those lesser goals anyway.
        • My plea is not therefore, “Ignore the cause of great Art and Reaching People; instead we must focus on the Lord, and love, obedience and faithfulness to Him.” Instead I say, “Focus on the Lord and love, obedience and faithfulness — which are acts of worship — and therefore our acts of great Art and Reaching People will follow and be stronger.”

        By the way, you may have inspired me to break my weekly SpecFaith article “sabbatical” again and write an article tomorrow. If I can, you have my thanks.

  13. J M Padoc says:

    My dear friend Laurel alerted me to this post, and I read the article and comments with great interest. On Twitter yesterday, I noticed that a Christian literary agent (not an agent who reps only Christian fiction, but a literary agent who happens to be a Christian) tweeted something about enjoying a particular book because religion was present, but the book wasn’t religious fiction. I asked her a few questions, and she graciously offered her opinion. I thought you all might be interested in a literary agent’s perspective on this topic.

    Grace and peace to all in this debate.

    https://storify.com/JMPadoc/agenda-driven-fiction

     

  14. J M Padoc says:

    I also thought of something I wanted to say as a reader and former writer . . .

    From a reader’s perspective, I don’t like a heavy-handed agenda in any of my fiction. There always has to be some compelling, story-related reason to keep reading, or I will give up. I hated Dune because of Frank Herbert’s heavy-handed approach to climate change, but I loved A Fine Balance because Rohinton Mistry showed, rather than told, the painful, humiliating, and horrific results of a society bowed by racism, castes, and totalitarian regimes.

    Perhaps what this really comes down to is that old adage, “show, don’t tell.” When the agenda or message is woven seamlessly and artfully into the narrative, perhaps it doesn’t matter quite so much what the agenda is. I know I have read books where I could identify the agenda and disagreed with it, but kept reading because the characters or story were so well-written that I couldn’t look away. And likewise, I’ve read terrible books that were heavy-handed (even if I agreed with the agenda or message) and poorly written, but I slogged through them because I thought I *should* for some external reason (usually because it was assigned or for “geek credibility”). But it’s my considered opinion that very few people will slog through a terrible book because it has a “good message” just because they want to.

    I will admit that I read books for weird reasons. I despised every character and all of the situations in A Bend in the River, and I know that V. S. Naipaul is a terrible misogynist, but I kept reading because he writes so beautifully and the setting was so vivid. Yes, I finished that book because of the pretty words. Perhaps not the best reason to finish a book, but as I said, I’m weird.

    J M

What do you think?