1. notleia says:

    Whoa, whoa, whoa, Imma call you out on that denominational No True Scotsman. Though the relationship between LDS and garden-variety Christianity is weird and complicated, let’s not start down that ugly path of “no, you don’t count as a Christian (PS, you’re going to hell).” Is the line drawn at Mormons, or are we going to exclude Catholics, too, since that’s popular in certain circles? Nobody wins at this game.

    • I see your “no true Scotsman” “fallacy” and raise you a slippery-slope fallacy (e.g. “you can’t do that or else you’ll have to do this too!” sans actual causal proof).

      Mormons don’t count as Christians for many reasons. They have a fully different understanding of Jesus Christ’s very nature that is utterly alien to all legitimate Christian denominations and church branches, including Catholicism.

      But we’ve been over the whole if-everyone’s-a-Christian-no-one-is discussion. 😛 At this rate perhaps we ought to be careful not to rule out atheists being “Christians.” 🙂

      • notleia says:

        So what do you win here? Holier-than-Thou of the Year? It’s the principle of not being a douchebag that I’m concerned about.

      • I can’t help but say this, though: so far some folks here have only put the view forth for consideration and have not been jerks about it at all. So I can only suggest: Beware lest responses intended to prevent or protect against such hypothetical jerkiness end up the only content that actually takes that kind of posture? 😛

        Also, I daresay Mormons can speak up for themselves if they happen by. As Robert pointed out, it’s not nearly so easy to speak for (or against) an entire group like that. Christians’ lives can be found in surprisingly hostile environments, like microbes living in a volcano event. But that does not automatically disqualify or automatically make “hateful” any declaration that the environment is still hostile to Christian life. The fact is that Mormon beliefs that are consciously held and intentionally constrated with traditional Christianity are a different religion from Christianity. That’s also how the Mormon religion began in the first place.

    • Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God.  Mormons believe that Jesus is a son of a god.

      Huge, huge distinction.

    • dmdutcher says:

      Mormons are actually closer to Muslims than Christians. Both essentially interpret both Christianity and Judaism through another gospel written by a prophet who claimed inspiration from God, and both created a different belief system even as they use terminology and situations from the Bible. 

      Problem is they are really, really good at presenting themselves as a Christian denomination by using the terms they have in common with Christianity, and minimizing the distinctive parts of Mormon doctrine in the public eye. But they aren’t, not by any means; it just isn’t apparent unless you read their texts or books explaining why.

      • notleia says:

        (Insert polygamy joke about more similarities.) At first I was all like, WTF, there’s a pretty big difference between Mormons and Muslims, but from the standpoint of “the broad difference between us and them, theologically speaking, is another prophet-filter,” then yeah, I can get that.
        I have a sneaking suspicion that Mormon’s being more likely to be perceived as “white” helps them in regards to blending in with garden-variety Christians. And anymore Mormons are pretty often lumped with Catholics and the various conservative Protestant denominations because of the similar stances on birth control/abortion/prayer-in-school/yada-yada.
        In fact, that’s a lump worth poking, doing a compare/contrast along socio-political lines amongst “typical” Mormons, Catholics, conservative Protestants, and, say, Episcopalians for a representative liberal bunch. Out of those four, I think Episcopalians are more likely to get kicked out of the “tribe” because, somehow, stuff like pro-life has become more deep-seated a requirement for tribal membership than the perception of just how divine Jesus is. Granted, it’s a somewhat easier subject to parse out, but I just find it funny how pro-life is mandatory when about fifty years ago no one gave a crap, and I mean no one. I think I can find a Slacktivist link if someone wants to ‘splore that more. I find it very “we have always been at war with East Asia.”

        • Fifty years ago, no one cared about pro-life issues because abortion wasn’t legal. But yeah, I think you’re right that the political alliences along cultural lines between Protestants, Catholics, and Mormons have really served to mainstream-ize the LDS church. Almost no one considers it a cult anymore, even though the accounts I’ve heard of secrecy and defector-shunning should place it squarely in that camp.

          • notleia says:

            No, I mean that Names with Heft in the tribe did not consider death of a fetus to be equal to death of a born person, per some verse in the Torah I can’t remember, the one where the penalty for causing a woman’s miscarriage is less than for a life taken even accidentally.
            Links! http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/02/18/the-biblical-view-thats-younger-than-the-happy-meal/;  http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2014/03/18/white-evangelicals-getting-ready-to-rewrite-the-bible-again/

            • I’m pretty sure I speak for a majority of Christian pro-lifers when I say that I’m pro-life not because of the pulpit-pounding of Names with Heft, but because of incontrovertible scriptural passages like Psalm 139:13-16 and Hebrews 7:9-10.

  2. Still… I would have preferred the phrase “not a believer” to be stricken. Excellent review for excellent books nonetheless.  

  3. merechristian says:

    Thank you for your kind words, Sir. I have to just say that I actually considered not including that phrase when I wrote it. I decided in the end that I had to do so, because if I didn’t, it would be me suggesting that Mormonism is true, and doing so for fear of criticism. Maybe I was too blunt, and should have phrased it better, but I had to make clear the fact that Mormonism is not Christianity in terms of the Bible. If I did handle it clumsily, I apologize, and will think over how to do so better in the future.

    A quick point here. Many LDS converts come from Christian denominations. That suggests they are not savvy enough to tell the difference between Biblical Christianity and LDS theology. There might be more true Christians in that church than we know. I’m not saying it is impossible. In general though, the theology is inherently anti-biblical, and so the presumption is that they aren’t Christians.

    I don’t think Catholics are the same as LDS’ers. In fact, I know their theology is (though problematic in some areas) Biblical. Stephen posted that theology importance wheel a year or two ago that illustrated the point better. In general, I assume the best of groups (cautiously) until I know otherwise. In the case of the LDS church, I do know otherwise, so I must teach the truth, and pray for their souls.

  4. People have been excommunicated and executed for disputing the “nature” of Christ for centuries. I would challenge my brothers who claim that anyone who believes kooky things about Christ is not saved to read scripture itself for the requirements of salvation. They do not, ironically, include a full, or even correct, understanding of the nature of Christ.  They do include repentance, charity, and obedience, many of which I see practiced wholeheartedly by those who have been placed on the “not a Christian” list by many sincere believers.

    • MereChristian says:

      Replying to this much later. It depends on what the person understands or has time to understand. Stephen had that wheel illustration to show the basics of salvation and then outward. As I said, LDS is an inherently unbiblical church. It’s hard to gauge for me, but there is some area where someone’s beliefs are too far off. In the end, it’s up to God to decide whoch individuals are Christians, but we ought criticize a church that is anti-biblical. And tose who understand how much their faith disputes the NT and distorts Christ and believe anyway, are questionable. But doubtless there are Christians in the Church alongside unsaved.

  5. Insightful analysis, Timothy.  I love how you connected with the character of Sazed.  Myself, I usually found him rather spineless and annoying.  But you’ve inspired me to consider his perspective more carefully on future rereads.

  6. Great review of a great series. I loved the Mistborn books. 
    I was interested in your point that Sanderson is tying all of these series together into one cohesive universe. I was not aware of this. The only other Sanderson book I’ve read so far however is Steelheart. I’ll get on to the Stormlight Archive some time.

    • merechristian says:

      Thank you guys.

      Yes, the books of his are mostly Cosmere novels tied together. The exceptions are Steelheart, Rithmatist, Alcatraz, and Legion, which take place on alternate versions of earth, and the Infinity Blade which are based on a game. The rest are in the Cosmere, and in the first two books (I’ve read the first, starting on the second one) it has characters and references to other books.

      Austin, I was a tad annoyed at Sazed at first, though not as much as other people. But on my reread this year, he just really was the main character I could connect with. Him and Spook.

  7. Hans Hergot says:

    It is interesting how many names in SFF are or may be mormons: Correia, Card, Farland, Mullins, Mull possibly, Meyer, Kevin Anderson. Oh I forgot some up and comers like Torgerson.
    Though they may not be Christians in the orthodox sense, I found the basic premise of the article to be correct. Their fiction tends to be acceptable (some of it really great) because it is not godless. For instance, M.K. Hutchin’s story The Temples Posthole at IGMS was my top pick for short stories last year: http://www.intergalacticmedicineshow.com/cgi-bin/mag.cgi?do=issue&vol=i32&article=_001
    It’s also interesting that they didn’t create Mormon Spec Fic and try to sell to the Mormon spec fic market.  Maybe we should be taking a clue?
    Who are the big Christian names in the secular market?

  8. Martin LaBar says:

    A fine summary and analysis of the books. It’s been a year or more since I read them, but your essay reminded me of what they were about, in considerable detail.

What do you think?