1. notleia says:

    You keep saying that the foundation of the show is “explicitly Christian,” but I’d like to see some textual support (or whatever the TV version of “textual support” is). Respect for life isn’t only a Christian value, and while forgiveness has some special warm-fuzzies for us, we don’t have a monopoly on it. Preferably this textual support would cross-referenced with textual support from Christianity and Buddhism, but I’ll admit that’s a tall order. But you really ought to back up claims like “Avatar is directly awesome specifically because of Christianity despite being obviously influenced from Buddhism.”

    • Glad to oblige.

      You keep saying that the foundation of the show is “explicitly Christian,” but I’d like to see some textual support (or whatever the TV version of “textual support” is).

      My arguments throughout this series are sufficient support that Avatar‘s pictures of repentance and forgiveness are overwhelmingly biblical — in fact, more biblical than the view of some Christians who believe that we should forgive everyone even if they do not repent and persist in their sin (see: child molestors, spiritual abusers).

      Here is more textual support — in the form of a commentator’s reference to the Avatar creators’ own commentaries — for the fact that key stories in Avatar were inspired not only by Jesus’s parable of the prodigal son, but a painting of Mary holding the dead Jesus.

      If you listen to the commentary track on the final four episodes of Avatar, the moment that Iroh embraces Zuko, Mike and Bryan openly discuss the connections to the Prodigal Son.

      They also talked about how this http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110119173755/avatar/images/6/69/Aang_dead.png

      was inspired by this http://www.maidofheaven.com/maid_assets/extras/Michelangelo_Pieta.jpg

      So the connections to christianity are beyond deniability.

      As for the contrast, once again I am saying that while the “face” of Avatar shows many elements from Eastern religion — chakras, reincarnation, the mystical elements of martial arts, etc. — it’s the repentance/reconcilation/forgiveness/good versus evil elements that are drawn from “Western” ideas of morality, which have their origin in Judeo-Christianity.

      Respect for life isn’t only a Christian value, and while forgiveness has some special warm-fuzzies for us, we don’t have a monopoly on it.

      I’m curious why you feel the need to give this reminder/lecture. 🙂 Nothing I have written would indicate that non-Christians cannot adopt, understand, or practice this concept of repentance and reconciliation. What I am saying, however, is that these ideas of mercy and justice have originated in Judeo-Christian views of the world. There is no sin, no guilt, and no shame in pointing this out and even feeling thanksgiving to the God Who established these virtues — virtues that reflect His mercy and justice, love and holiness.

      … claims like “Avatar is directly awesome specifically because of Christianity despite being obviously influenced from Buddhism.”

      On the contrary, I’ve acknowledged influence from both world-religions. Again, I said:

      In A:TLA the language, minor themes, and symbols are decidedly Eastern-influenced but the foundation is almost explicitly Christian.

      The very fact that the story follows a traditional hero’s journey — e.g. hero has/had what he wants, hero loses it, hero fights for it, hero falls hard, hero rallies again, hero commits the ultimate sacrifice and wins and vanquishes evil — is further evidence of a Christian-inspired foundation. This series hasn’t even explored that; I’ve only explored the forgiveness themes.

      • notleia says:

        hero has/had what he wants, hero loses it, hero fights for it, hero falls hard, hero rallies again, hero commits the ultimate sacrifice and wins and vanquishes evil — is further evidence of a Christian-inspired foundation.

        WAAAAT? So, you’re claiming that the monomyth theory as being explicitly Christian, too? Though when you conflate “Christian” with “Western,” as you seem to be doing, it’s a eeny little bit less of a stretch, but it’s still a stretch.

        What I am saying, however, is that these ideas of mercy and justice have originated in Judeo-Christian views of the world. 

        That’s exactly what I’d like some citation on. If a square is a rectangle but not all rectangles are squares, I want you to give some proofs that this is a square, you follow?

        • notleia says:

          And you know what also uses Judeo-Christian symbolism? Neon Genesis Evangelion. Is it Christian? Nope. A reference isn’t necessarily an endorsement, yanno.

      • You haven’t yet responded to my proof above that the Avatar creators intentionally explored both pictures of biblical events (such as the speculative painting of Mary holding the dead Jesus) and themes/stories of forgiveness that are unique to the Bible, most explicitly Zuko’s reconcilation with Iroh.

        Far more interesting to me is why this is even important, other than — this is my interpretation — perhaps some latent impulse to be politically correct?

        Of course I believe my faith is the best one and for religious reasons alone will naturally contend that everything in the universe, including monomyth story “tropes,” is inspired by and borrows from the greatest story of Jesus Christ, because I believe God is the Author of history. This is a natural outgrowth of Biblical Christianity. To demand this be proven “scientifically” is rather absurd.

        But I also draw connections between unseen human story “memes” based on shared heritage of religion and stories. Most people in Western cultures are still very familiar with Jesus’s parable of the Prodigal Son (or rather, the parable of the two sons) and familiar with ideas images of Christ and his “hero’s journey.”

        I’ve already showed above that this is clearly the case with the Avatar creators. This doesn’t impart any motives to them; it simply makes the observation.

        Also: here I use “Western” is a synonym for beliefs that contrast with “Eastern” religion (e.g. chakras, reincarnation, “balance” between good/order and evil/disorder rather than good’s intrinsic superiority over evil, etc.). It would be silly for someone to conflate this term with, say, the hybrid civil religion of Christo-Americanism that borrows parts from Christianity to use in its own machine. (Of course, both Judaism and Christianity were born in the Middle East.)

        And you know what also uses Judeo-Christian symbolism? Neon Genesis Evangelion. Is it Christian? Nope.

        Once more, from the actual article:

        […] the [story’s] foundation is almost explicitly Christian.

        Please show where I said all of Avatar: The Last Airbender is “Christian.”

        You’ve been around SpecFaith long enough to know its regular writers are not nearly so thoughtless as to call any Judeo-Christian symbol-using story a “Christian” story. 😛 Christians are human beings defined by their salvation by and likeness to Jesus Christ. Literally, Christ-ian. So a thing isn’t “Christian.” Etc.

        Again, I’m confused why any of this strikes you as offensive. Or is this more like trollin’, even of a fellow Avatar fan (who wept at the Korra book 3 finale)? 😀

        • notleia says:

          Your persistent ethnocentrism sets my teeth on edge. HARD. Because it makes you look like a culturally appropriating asshat. And I mean asshat.

          Also, I find your lack of textual support to be super annoying mostly because of my English major training. What are these fundamentals of the show that are so explicitly Christian? All you seem to be offering is the forgiveness and the respect for life and the justice, and those are not explicitly Christian. Pieta reference? Fine and dandy, but a wink and a nod doesn’t brand this show as particularly Christian, because that’s not how references work. Use of the Prodigal Son story as a subplot? Fine and dandy, but a motif doesn’t brand this show in its entirety as particularly Christian.

          In short, I find your premise faulty, your logic whack, and, again, your cultural appropriation asshattish.

          • Matthias M. Hoefler says:

            notleia, how do you not get how rude you are being? No doubt you’ve heard that before. For this reader, whatever valid points you may have are being lost in your approach of degrading Burnett. Which I notice is a favorite hobby. It disgusts me.

             

            Critique the argument rather than the arguer. Civility on your part might make life easier.

        • Your persistent ethnocentrism sets my teeth on edge. HARD. Because it makes you look like a culturally appropriating asshat. And I mean asshat.

          Thanks for your honesty. But that means this isn’t a friendly discussion as I had hoped, but a potential flame war (fueled by at least one person’s anger) that could spread out of control. So I suggest we end the discussion soon.

          I’ve still offered more support for my views above than you’ve offered for any claim that my perspective is “ethnocentric.” 🙂 As with other popular-cultural criticisms based on appearance alone — e.g. the assertion that “that looks evil to me, so it must be evil” — I can’t follow this approach. It seems based not on respect for another person’s viewpoint and desire to converse with and understand him/her, but on religious-level shaming — a cultural fundamentalist impulse. I say this not to throw back shame in return but to point out (again, I think) that you seem to imitate the exact same “that looks like a sin to me, so it is sin (and makes me outraged)” methods that are better known among fundamentalist Christians. So I ask: why the shame attempts?

          • notleia says:

            Hare Krishna Odin Mithra, you are indeed making me angry, but I agree it’s pointless to argue with you when you insist on being blind to how your argument, that Avatar is awesome because Christianity despite the Buddhism/Eastern philosophy, minimizes the contribution of awesome made by Buddhism, et al, and even tries to appropriate that awesomeness because forgiveness, et al, is theoretically (unfoundedly) explicitly (with the connotation of exclusively) an attribute that Christians have, implying that Buddhists do not.

            You need to step out of your Evangelical bubble a little more often.

          • Your “swearing” makes me smile.

            But there’s still nothing in my article that matches anything like this:

            Avatar is awesome because Christianity despite the Buddhism/Eastern philosophy, minimizes the contribution of awesome made by Buddhism, et al, and even tries to appropriate that awesomeness because forgiveness, et al, is theoretically (unfoundedly) explicitly (with the connotation of exclusively) an attribute that Christians have, implying that Buddhists do not.

            This is an old, old “debate” that happens every time a Christian says/implies this:

            1. Christian: I suggest that Virtue X originates from the Christian faith.
            2. Non-Christian: You mean no one else practices Virtue X, including me!
            3. Christian: …

            If you can demonstrate where I said anything like, “Avatar is awesome because Christianity despite the Buddhism/Eastern philosophy,” or anything like “Christians have forgiveness but Buddhists” do not, I’ll gladly recuse that part.

            All of us have personal limitations in belief and knowledge based on our family, religious upbringing, culture, necessary inability to know all beliefs/cultures, etc. I know I do. But it’s absurd to say that not only this article, but I personally, am inside a “bubble” based on things I haven’t even written and do not even believe.

  2. For the record, the very nature of storytelling lends itself to varying interpretations.

    I’ve said that in Avatar, the Buddhist/Eastern ideas are certainly there but ultimately they end up more like decoration. I’ve also said the fundamental story structure is closer to Christian themes of forgiveness and reconcilation, good versus evil, and many other themes that are closer to Christianity.

    By the way, this is also true in The Legend of Korra, such as in book 2 that explores themes of moral ambiguity — one avatar closed the spirit portals; another opens them — but also ends up subverting the Eastern yin-and-yang understanding of “balance” with a very Christian idea of good versus evil: the light spirit is unilaterally good and must win while the dark spirit and his ally are unilaterally bad and must be destroyed.

    However, I know I may have missed something! So I welcome arguments that I’m all wet on the story of Avatar and its themes. But pointing out, “You have just took a position on the story’s themes” as if a position alone is invalid — I don’t get that.

    • notleia says:

      I will agree that the 2nd season of Korra has that good over evil edge, but that was a new (questionable) addition that the Aang series did not have. They were thoroughly consistent in the first series with the Avatar being a promoter of balance, not just good. And that Raava/Vaatu thing is on the list of reasons why I think the Korra series is inferior to the Aang series.

      • Glad we can agree on something.

        I wonder: have you seen the finale of book 3? As spectacular as book 2’s finale was, book 3’s finale was far more personal for every hero and thus far more emotionally gripping.

        I would contend of course that Aang’s banishment of Fire Lord Ozai to a kind of “hell” — sparing his life based not on some deep religious principle of “balance” but based on his own personal convictions that differed from each of the four previous avatars with whom he spoke! — is another indication that Avatar‘s “balance” is still a very, if I may say, “Westernized” version of the concept. In fact, even the minimal exposure I have to anime that was actually made in the East demonstrates a strong awareness of Christian concepts (several of those reviews are here on SpecFaith). It’s perfectly fine to make stories that in a sense “syncretize” “East” and “West” and explore their similarities and their differences. But any story with a hero fighting a villain or force that is clearly evil will demonstrate a basis in the Judeo-Christian worldview and influence of stories.

  3. sparksofember says:

    I really need to finish this tv series. We were renting it but the video store somehow decided to skip (or lost) a volume in their collection. We just need to buckle down and buy it. (Btw, I’m one of the few who enjoyed the movie as much as the series.) I’m already spoiled for how it goes though, so I enjoyed the articles.

    While I wouldn’t call Avatar a “Christian” show, it definitely relies on many Christian themes. I have to wonder how much of it intentionally comes from the personal beliefs of the people behind the show and how much may just be due to the artistic/cultural influence of a show that imitates Japanese anime but is western-made…

  4. Haska607 says:

    This was said beautifully.You showed the meaning of Avatar the last airbender and the choses aang made. Thank you.

  5. Kessie says:

    I wish somebody would explore the themes in the finale of season 2 of Avatar. You know the part when Aang has to learn to open the chakras? But each thing he learns is a Christian virtue. I was watching it, totally blown away. Why can’t actual Christian fiction be this good?

    • Which is just my point/theory: Avatar‘s storytelling cannot help but use the language and concepts of Eastern religion as a sort of colorful surface over top of Christian-inspired beliefs. See also: Star Wars, Star Trek, and a whole host of other fantasy and science fiction that tries valiantly to be all mystical and humanist but follows Judeo-Christian concepts of good versus evil, heroism, respect for life especially human life, and more distinctives.

  6. Hannah says:

    Awesome articles! I especially loved your ending punchline. 🙂

  7. bainespal says:

    One preacher called Abraham and Lot and the other Biblical figures of the Old Testament “Christians,” noting that “they didn’t know that name.” In the context of the Christian audience, it may have been an effective choice of semantics to express the complicated idea that the Old Testament saints related to God by faith in His covenant the same way that Christians do today. However, if there had been a Jewish person in the audience, I don’t think anyone could blame him for becoming offended at the implication that Abraham and Moses were Christians.

    I think it’s true from one set of semantics to say that universal morality originates in Christianity, taking a very broad definition of “Christianity.” But even for hardcore exclusivist Christians, I don’t think this is the best or most accurate terminology. Morality is universal and common to all people; that is why God is just to judge. Like the Old Testament saints, universal morality predates Christianity.

    As a Christian, I believe that Christ embodied the totality of moral truth, that Christianity uniquely expresses the true existential condition of humanity. Christianity embodies universal morality better and more directly than any other religion can, but the moral truth did not originate in or with Christianity.

    Literary themes may be different. Some ideas that even non-Christians value in the modern world may have originated from Christianity’s influence on Western civilization.

What do you think?